Question / Help Striving for best looking stream out there @ twitch. An expert or highly experienced persons opinion/feedback would mean a lot.

[Rezzered]

In a nuthshell, I'm trying to bring out the best looking stream possible atm. Yeah you heard it right.

My dedicated streaming PC:
Ryzen 3900x (12c,24t) with stable (lets say all core) OC on 4400ghz (ccx0 4450, ccx1 4350)
16gb kingston hyperx ram on oc @ 3466mhz
GTX 770 (Guess doesn't mean a lot since it's a streaming PC)
Avermedia live gamer 4k capture card, capturing @ 1920x1080-240fps (from my 240hz monitor) (in OBS it's capped at 60fps on the video capture device)


i'm streaming at 1600x900-60fps (lancozs downscale), with 8000 bitrate, high profile, medium preset, but with custom x264 settings that leans it towards slow preset:
rc-lookahead 80 (dramatically increases the quality of stream, 80 so far has been my sweet spot, as it looks better than 60)
trellis=1 (slower preset sets this automatically to 2, but there is no highly perceivable quality improvement except for more CPU usage, so i leave it to 1)
direct-pred=spatial (slower sets this to auto, no drastically visible quality improvement either, except for more CPU usage, so i leave it to spatial)

+ i use tune = automation mainly to blur out pixelation blocks when having fast movements around heavy scenes.

Here are some VOD results:
Game with a visually more complex environment: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/568508919?t=1h35m43s
Game with a visually less complex environment: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/568508919?t=2h47m26s

With all this i get pretty good quality, but not that level of quality as i see for example in Liriks or Sodapoppins stream, and i do believe they probably have a slightly powerful intel systems, but as you all know there is level of balance needed for x264 which benefits a better per core performance than having more cores, as i understood OBS doesn't use more than 20 cores/threads (incl. Hyperthreading?), and therefore i'm questioning myself, how can their stream look much better @ 1080p60 than my 900p60, what's the secret sauce?

 

[Malic]

Be aware that having Partner, Affiliate and standard account will prioritize your data. Partners get transcoding by default, and Affiliates get it as space allows.

8000 is max Twitch allows, but again, Partner > Affiliate > Non-Affiliate. As your account is Non-Affiliate, stream is just source signal all the time, so does not get the quality settings of transcoding.

Make sure you do have keyframe interval set to 2, this is a big one that causes delay and other issues, even if set to auto.

Below are my personal settings on my dedicated streaming computer. It is streaming and recording to hard drive at same setting used for stream.


My canvas is also 1776x998, the size the display is on a 1080p screen set to theater view mode with chat on the side, so it is not having to calculate extra pixels that never get seen, and is not, not showing any so no loss of detail. Getting transcoding later on will help those that are not able to watch your source signal, and will do the things necessary for detail at those resolutions.

I have had times where setting CPU preset slower causes more issues and make it look worse, and is why I use fast. I also know that many of my viewers watch on mobile and consoles, so use Baseline so their devices can still see the stream, and Film preset because of what I play. I might change to Grain if the game itself has a grainy look as part of the game design.


PS: running at 60 FPS is likely preventing some people from watching your stream without stutters right now, as Non-Affiliates do not get the transcoding options. There was info out a few years ago that said that about 70-75% of Twitch users could see a 720p@30 FPS stream with a bit rate of 6000, but higher then that and it prevents people from being able to watch and have video be stable.

 

[Rezzered]

Im a bit confused, about transcoding, although im not even affiliate, i do have transcoding options available while im streaming.
There is setting icon on player that allows to switch stream to 720p. :-) And thats been the reason i stream on 8000bitrate.

1. I don't believe baseline profile should be used anymore , since high profile is pretty much supported by most devices already, phones, pc, tvs.
2. From my experience, and what i have read, grain tune is supposed for a content that is more still or not so active as for example fps games does. It elevates the grain in picture, film and animation does the quite opposite, and blurs that grain away.
3. I always have keyframes on 2.
4. 1776x998 could try this out, interesting.

Thanks for input.

 

[Malic]

I went to your twitch page and it is not showing sub options, so you are not getting transcoding as a non-affiliate.. about 70-75 viewers is where transcoding kicks on to your channel when live

 

[Rezzered]

Would love to hear more answers. bump

 

[FerretBomb]

A couple of minor corrections.

Twitch's maximum bitrate is 6000kbps, not 8000. Going beyond 6000 is "here there be dragons" territory, where it may work, but there also may be severe technical issues. The 8000 number is a "common knowledge" word-of-mouth thing as a relatively safe target, but it is absolutely above Twitch's advertised maximum. You can also push higher than 8000, depending on your connection to the ingest, stability of your throughput, and sheer random luck. It can also break replication to more distant video delivery servers on Twitch's back-end, invisible to you unless a viewer complains about the player throwing a lot of errors.

Partners are guaranteed transcodes. Everyone else receives them based on available capacity, and selection is done through an undisclosed process. A small, niche stream with 5 viewers and a standard account might get transcodes turned on, while an Affiliate with 50 viewers may not.

 

[TryHD]

Twitch's maximum bitrate is 6000kbps, not 8000. Going beyond 6000 is "here there be dragons" territory, where it may work, but there also may be severe technical issues. The 8000 number is a "common knowledge" word-of-mouth thing as a relatively safe target, but it is absolutely above Twitch's advertised maximum. You can also push higher than 8000, depending on your connection to the ingest, stability of your throughput, and sheer random luck. It can also break replication to more distant video delivery servers on Twitch's back-end, invisible to you unless a viewer complains about the player throwing a lot of errors.

Not really. Twitch confirmed themself that their ingest cap is 8250 kbit/s for the video feed non public, after that they remove source option for every stream which got transcoding and cut off the stream for every stream that has no transcoding. Also it breaks nothing, the system is build to work flawless for much larger bitrates, but they set the limit there for cost reasons and not because of technical limits.
As a company you don't build your service to work just based on sheer random luck.

Partners are guaranteed transcodes. Everyone else receives them based on available capacity, and selection is done through an undisclosed process. A small, niche stream with 5 viewers and a standard account might get transcodes turned on, while an Affiliate with 50 viewers may not.

Even partners don't have guaranteed transcodes.

 

[MD83]

Here is a few of the options I have set under the x264 settings. I have tinkered with a few of these this past weekend. I stream 1080p60 on slow preset, profile high, at 8k bitrate. I used the settings you have for some of my older videos when I was streaming/gaming on 1 rig, and the settings listed below on all videos that are from the past 2 days on a 2pc setup, in my profile. I have a few streams that have different games in them as I try to hammer out the best settings possible in single streams lol. PC specs on listed on twitch.

threads=20 rc-lookahead=60 trellis=1 direct-pred=none subme=2 merange=48 ref=2 partitions=all b-adapt=2 deblock=-2:1

Twitch

Twitch is the world's leading video platform and community for gamers.

www.twitch.tv

and dont mind the actual content of gaming, i usually suck lol

 

[FerretBomb]

Not really. Twitch confirmed themself that their ingest cap is 8250 kbit/s for the video feed non public, after that they remove source option for every stream which got transcoding and cut off the stream for every stream that has no transcoding. Also it breaks nothing, the system is build to work flawless for much larger bitrates, but they set the limit there for cost reasons and not because of technical limits.
As a company you don't build your service to work just based on sheer random luck.

Please cite this source. All official Twitch references list 6000kbps as the maximum. The Source removal has not been confirmed, and can be worked around in most cases by having viewers refresh the player. Again, there's a lot of 'word of mouth' and 'common knowledge' passing around that is not based in any actual official information, just something on Reddit, or from a YouTube tutorial made by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, just repeating what they've heard.

Even partners don't have guaranteed transcodes.

Yes, Partners do. Speaking as a Partner. It's one of the few remaining Partner-only perks.

 

[TryHD]

Please cite this source. All official Twitch references list 6000kbps as the maximum. The Source removal has not been confirmed, and can be worked around in most cases by having viewers refresh the player. Again, there's a lot of 'word of mouth' and 'common knowledge' passing around that is not based in any actual official information, just something on Reddit, or from a YouTube tutorial made by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, just repeating what they've heard.

twitch writes nowhere that 6000 is the maximum, they write that it is their recommended bitrate, so i asked them via dm on twitter and simply testing yourself does confirm that 6000 is not the maximum, i don't know what somebody writes on reddit or youtube and i don't care.

Yes, Partners do. Speaking as a Partner. It's one of the few remaining Partner-only perks.

It is in the contract but i can say from first hand expierience that they don't do transcoding if you stream for hours with 0 viewers because you forgot that the stream is still on.

 

[FerretBomb]

twitch writes nowhere that 6000 is the maximum, they write that it is their recommended bitrate, so i asked them via dm on twitter and simply testing yourself does confirm that 6000 is not the maximum, i don't know what somebody writes on reddit or youtube and i don't care.

Incorrect. https://help.twitch.tv/s/article/gu...spector?language=en_US#HowtoSetaProperBitrate specifies 6000kbps as the maximum. This maximum is echoed in MANY other places in all official Twitch communication, especially when presented as a range. Please do not spread word-of-mouth misinformation as if it were fact. "It still works if you go over" is fine, but don't present 8000kbps as if it were an official number, because it is absolutely not.

It is in the contract but i can say from first hand expierience that they don't do transcoding if you stream for hours with 0 viewers because you forgot that the stream is still on.

Again, this is misinformation. Partners are guaranteed transcodes. If you did not have them and are a Partner, your source feed may have been far enough outside spec that it broke the transcoding stacks.
Zero viewers or a hundred thousand, Partners are guaranteed to have transcodes.

 

[TryHD]

Incorrect. https://help.twitch.tv/s/article/gu...spector?language=en_US#HowtoSetaProperBitrate specifies 6000kbps as the maximum. This maximum is echoed in MANY other places in all official Twitch communication, especially when presented as a range. Please do not spread word-of-mouth misinformation as if it were fact. "It still works if you go over" is fine, but don't present 8000kbps as if it were an official number, because it is absolutely not.

and here they recommend it and write nothing about a maximum https://stream.twitch.tv/encoding/
And you are right, 8000 is not the official maximum it is 8240 kbps

Again, this is misinformation. Partners are guaranteed transcodes. If you did not have them and are a Partner, your source feed may have been far enough outside spec that it broke the transcoding stacks.
Zero viewers or a hundred thousand, Partners are guaranteed to have transcodes.

dude you should stop trusting everything that is written somewhere, what the the content team writes somewhere and what is implemented by tech stack team are in most companies different things.

 

[FerretBomb]

and here they recommend it and write nothing about a maximum https://stream.twitch.tv/encoding/
And you are right, 8000 is not the official maximum it is 8240 kbps

Which you have not cited from an official source. I have pointed you at an official Twitch page stating that 6000kbps is the maximum. The page you linked reflects the 6000kbps in its recommendations, and mentions '8240' absolutely nowhere.

dude you should stop trusting everything that is written somewhere, what the the content team writes somewhere and what is implemented by tech stack team are in most companies different things.

I am stating the case as a Twitch Partner. You are providing misinformation apparently pulled from your fundament, which may mislead people who don't know any better, and should button your lip until you have some factual information to provide.

 

[TryHD]

I don't know what is wrong with you, that you don't try yourself what works best and instead quote useless best practises that are designed to work for average joe in a thread about "Striving for best looking stream out there" don't you get it that you are wrong here with that? You have nothing usefull provided here, how about trying yourself to button your lip until you have some helpfull information to provide.
Thank you

 

[koala]

Best practice is what is documented and recommended by the streaming provider webpages, and this is exactly what everyone should use as guideline. Not what the streaming providers ingest servers are actually able to swallow. Because best practice is verified and guaranteed to work, while technical capabilities are always designed to be a bit higher to accommodate high usage situations, but these capabilities are never guaranteed to always work reliably.

So stick to documented best practice.

 

[Dotfrag]

I finally found a like minded individual asking for what I am looking for, the holy grail of config for a clean 1080 60 8k bitrate stream on a two pc setup and I scroll down to see an argument.. Then the thread ends jeeeez the Internet sucks sometimes.

Did anyone get any good custom x264 options in the end? not just what eposvox recommends. I have now seen so many streamers running 1080 60 at 8k bitrate who have quality way ahead of mine during high motion.. I ask what they're doing and they joke 'trade secret'. I run high aa in games, I have a 2nd pc capable of slow or slower if that was even worthwhile.. I'm 100 percent missing something that a lot of streamers are doing in their configuration. During any sort of motion the quality goes down the drain, blocking in dark spots etc.. Other streams they have none of it with the same bitrate.

 

[k9online]

I finally found a like minded individual asking for what I am looking for, the holy grail of config for a clean 1080 60 8k bitrate stream on a two pc setup and I scroll down to see an argument.. Then the thread ends jeeeez the Internet sucks sometimes.

Did anyone get any good custom x264 options in the end? not just what eposvox recommends. I have now seen so many streamers running 1080 60 at 8k bitrate who have quality way ahead of mine during high motion.. I ask what they're doing and they joke 'trade secret'. I run high aa in games, I have a 2nd pc capable of slow or slower if that was even worthwhile.. I'm 100 percent missing something that a lot of streamers are doing in their configuration. During any sort of motion the quality goes down the drain, blocking in dark spots etc.. Other streams they have none of it with the same bitrate.

No 1080p stream (at 60fps at least) will look as good as a 720p60 one with limitations like 6-8000kbps. It's not a subjective thing, its just a simple limitation of x264/h264. It's not highly efficient and was never made for live streaming. If you think any 1080p60fps stream actually looks good with lots of high motion (doesn't matter if you have a bloody Threadripper or latest NVENC, 1080p at high framerates artifacts significantly more than 720p when constrained to these bitrates) then that's fine, you'd be in line with I'm imagining over 95% of Twitch viewers. No one but us geeks notice or care and the viewer is all that matters in the end I guess. People seem to almost feel "weak" or "n00bish" if they dont push the highest numbers and care if people don't see "1080p60" in the quality options... if you REALLY want a great looking stream during lots of motion, be smarter than the people saying their artifacting is a "trade secret" and stick with 720p 60fps and play with your bitrate a bit. I dont recommend anyone push more than 6000kbps for obvious reasons but it helps if you do. I found I had to stop at about 7500kbps where I'm located or I start dropping frames so that's where I stay. 720p60 at 7500kbps looks simply amazing. Cheers!