Question / Help About to order a Micomsoft SC-512N1-L/DVI Advice on smoothness and audio!

yanis31

Member
Hello Guys!

backstory:
i'm a relatively satisifed 5820k @ 4.5ghz Asus X99-S / 16gb / GTX780 user that has my old FX-8370E / ga-970a-ud3p / 8gb (handles 4.7ghz on air) cpu still laying around... (only a Geforce gt520 1gb gpu)
but ... a single pc is still troublesome - i just cant get my 60fps streams smooth enough on tough games because i prefer using cpu preset "medium" and game capture just isnt smooth enough for 60fps streaming on many titles, or the game fps dips too far below 60 in places ... time to put these two pc's together! - im a bit keen on streaming 864p60medium if i like the image but the AMD is really stretching its legs on that (i can use the intel for encode too, cause this setting on it is a total breeze - just would feel a bit awkward this way)

- i am an hour or two away from putting in the order for the capture card,

but the more i read about OBS video source still not being smooth, people using things liek amarec etc.
audio complications are a bit of a drag... i'm having some last minute doubts wether im really investing smart now,

is there someone that can give me a real idea wether it will be a stress free experience or i will still end up with a burning head in the end to get a smooth 60fps stream?

also how's the audio quality when put via DVI/hdmi? (my hdmi input monitor has a headphone socket / confirmed that it works with a DVI-to-HDMI cable from graphics card) however theres massive distortion on louder volumes (monitos vol adjustment side / i can input max windows volume and reduce it in monitor settings to remove the distortion), i presume that's the monitor's poor audio solution, i could live with this temporarily until i come up with a better solution.
or i can just use my soundcard and then use "what u hear" to listen to it and output to DVI/hdmi - but there is a delay - is the delay always constant so i can just sync it up in the encode pc's OBS?
i have a soundblaster omni 5.1 USB soundcard but sadly it doesnt allow to output to two outputs at the same time (headphone + optical for instance / and the earlier X-Fi surround 5.1 pro card i once had ACTUALLY DID! go figure...

and they don't have a digital line-in either ... so both my motherboards and this card all have a single optical out but no in's,
no coax either ...

but i guess optical/coax "-IN" can be added with a small add-in card that plugs to the spdif-I connector on motherboard?

havent tried wether the Asus X99-S crystal sound does allow simultaneous digital/headphone output ... im sure i could use that for some time if it does and i could find a digital input audio option in the 2nd pc...

at some point i am thinking about a mixer and better mic cause im using at2020usb+ and its not the greatest solution, so at that point the whole audio setup might get overhauled again so im not sure what to do here...
are there some relatively inexpensive devices that can add optical audio to hdmi? do these splitters/mixers cause any hdmi delay?
 

yanis31

Member
ok i just realised both motherboards only have spdif-o on them ... so an actual sound card with optical-in would be necessary to transfer digital audio, but anyway if i can sync up the delay caused by "listen to this device" im good!
also if i can expect the same smoothness as i got when i tested streaming a "full screen 60fps video" using monitor capture.. im good! stream will look great... i think i am going to bite the bullet, just as i did with the x99 build ... nobody could tell me in much detail what to really expect from a overclocked 5820k ... now i know - i guess it will be the same story here :) - you never know for sure until you try! ... curse you 21% VAT!!!!
 

ProgFoxx

New Member
As an owner of the Micomsoft, I would say don't buy it. It is a great card with its native software and Amarec -- but the amount of problems I have had, along with many other users would lead me never to recommend it.

I have tried using this card on three high-level machines, Stuttering and other framerate deficiencies on all of them. Over the past year I have pinpointed the problem to be with the hardware or the drivers. There is no support for the card (besides owners of it) so the newest drivers are manufactured by other companies and modified by other users.

For the stability and non-reliability of the support, I would say look onward to finding another device. It is incredibly funny actually, that so many people recommend it -- when so many people have issues with the card in OBS (in which users make support threads, and everyone is stumped on why issues arise and how to fix them).
 

yanis31

Member
Thanks for the advice ProgFoxx! - this helps..
still holding out for a bit...
what's worse is that if i would sell my AMD parts, then add the cap card and other parts cost =
price difference between 5820k and 5960x. - but i bet that thing isn't all that great for 60fps streaming either,
atleast in the now expired battlefront beta, and battlefield 4 .. the 5820k @ 4.5 is not doing very well, even at 720p_45fps_medium - lots of stuttering and jerkyness
gta 5 also gets some performance drops all over the place... some places its straight 60fps with vsync on ... someplaces it drops to 45fps sometimes even less... while working noticeably better without streaming .. even on the AMD.

I am guessing the ExtremecapU3 is still out of the question? (~140eur here...) or if the chipset works fine with it its not really giving much problems to people? - buying that might allow me to get a XLR mic and a mixer with only little added total cost!

overall i am still leaning towards getting the card jsut for the reason that games will run flawlessly with full FPS potential and there are other things ... like having your stream pc be on a separate internet connection than your game pc for added safety etc. - help me decide guys!
 

yanis31

Member
Ok let's look at this thing from another perspective -

i just realised i have been making a fool out of myself - i checked and for some reason a while ago i had switched off the "prefer maximum performance" under "3d settings" in nvidia control panel - and it has a MASSIVE effect on games... my gtx780 was downclocking to some 600-700mhz at random times during gta5 and causing big fps drops...
(my normal boost clock is around 1240mhz)
with this enabled (jsut set to global so all games use it) situation is much better - its now 60fps almost constantly with 720_60_medium on both GTA5 and yes - even battlefield4! (granted i didnt get to test a full 64player server but i had some 30-40 people in paracel storm and it was all nice, not perfect but nearly smooth @ 60, i did limit game fps to 62 however with the console command.
is there a more solid option that might completely disable the underclocking and make the card run constant mhz?

-we can kind of see a trend of situations where if your GPU is completely maxed out and cpu usage is high-ish the game capture can start to stutter a bit in some of these games, even tho it seems cpu has enough resources left to encode smoothly (if im not mistaken user FerretBomb already hinted at something similar once for me)

so uhmmm... there's this thing called 980Ti on sale starting from 584Eur in my country... and i have only a 1080p monitor...
after trading in my 780 poseidon it would be barely any more expense than getting the capcard ... and if this helps things ...
i could wait a bit on that 2pc setup...

any thoughts? would i just end up with no improvement apart from every game maxed out? or this could do something?

ok - im off to test FC4 and the ultimate cpu resource hog! - Assassin's Creed Unity :)

EDIT: Far Cry 4 "can handle it" but looks a bit jerky and the game has a noticeable fps drop when streaming, most of the time in the 50's while being almost solid 60fps with vsync on otherwise...
Unity handles this setting but game fps sits mostly in the 40's with all the big swings up and down this game has,
it looks like atleast a 10 or more fps drop compared to running the game without stream, also the cpu is getting a serious workout ... often around 90% usage - i guess the fps drop is going to be my deciding factor then, while otherwise i could really enjoy the benefits of a faster gpu... i guess it wont help in this case due to some cpu bottleneck.
- it does make me wonder how would a hypothetical 5960x + 980ti combo do ... i guess with that i could get along haha! but the cost of something like that is unjustifiable if you struggle with money!
 
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FerretBomb

Active Member
I've had absolutely the opposite experience from ProgFoxx. My SC-512 has been an amazing card; the only stumbling blocks have been making sure it was in a PCIe 2.0 slot (apparently many motherboards will still use 1.0 for 1x slots), latency/stutter introduced by OBS' video capture device handling (literally running through Amarec and then game capturing is lower latency and smoother performance than OBS vidcapdev), or under extreme situations (running three 1080p@60fps capture cards simultaneously, plus encoding pushing my CPU load to 95%+).

I've received similar feedback from several large streamers I've recommended it to (including the PCIe 1.0 issue... though one plugged the sources into the passthrough port briefly on first setup) and have heard nothing back but satisfaction after dealing with minor initial install issues.

The lack of English support is indeed a problem. But I've only heard of two cases that were not caused by improper system setup (PEBKAC errors), and couldn't be handled by the English-speaking community.

Far as audio quality goes, it delivers whatever you give it. Any time I've had a problem with the audio, it's turned out to be a "garbage in, garbage out" situation (most notably a cheap Wii HDMI adapter with horrible audio; switching to component cables and RCA stereo brought in the sound crystal-clear and properly).

The Extremecap still has major issues. Avoid. Audio stutter, freezing, inconsistent performance, and outright device crashing.
 

yanis31

Member
Allright then! -
Thanks FerretBomb for inspiring confidence!
(i was the guy who asked you about the card on stream a few days ago :)

Just placed the order with 2-5 business day shipping and will let you guys know how it goes!
- always nice to have more users post their opinions...
according to the 970A-UD3P specsheet all the pci-e slots are 2.0 ..
- i think i could also plug it into the 2nd gpu slot which is 4x or 8x (970chipset)
or even the primary 16x one - i just hope the GT520 wont be limiting OBS performance in any way,
but i did some test encode on that machine without overclock (stock cooler) using monitor capture and all seemed well,
pretty sure i will keep running Windows 8.1 on the encoding machine, never had any issues with it whatsoever, 10 is just not there yet!
might as well end up plugging it into the x99 board ... let's face it - i have barely noticed any fps difference in my favorite games when moving from the AMD to Intel, it's either in games that run well above 60fps anyway.. or im getting bottlenecked by the 780.. rarely a get to see any real world benefits at all, and the intel board has so far not given me any usb issues running multiple logitech webcams etc. (its a thing with the c920's and 930's - have had usb bugs/shutdowns happen)
 

Boildown

Active Member
When I had a GT 630 (that I now use on my mediacenter PC) with a couple different capture cards (Avermedia and Datapath) it was definitely a bottleneck in how good quality I could capture, even with an Intel 2600k. Granted this was a couple years ago now and maybe the latest OBS and Nvidia drivers are better, but I'd definitely consider getting a GTX750 or something along those lines for your streaming PC. And yeah, Windows 10 is not there yet. Put off the update until Microsoft gives us a legitimate reason to do so.
 

yanis31

Member
@Boildown - That does sound alarming, especially since 630 has double the stream processors, texture units & mem bus width of the 520, - it would make this build unnecessarily expensive since i already need to get a PSU and cpu cooler for it on top of the capcard ... well nothing i can do about it anymore - however i really did not feel like im being limited in any way when i made some test encodes, are you saying it can somehow affect the performance of the actual capture? (which sounds weird) or are you talking about encoding performance? - or perhaps image filtering in obs? (which i presume happens before its being encoded)

i guess we will see what happens...
 

FerretBomb

Active Member
GPU usage is minimal. The only video card that will cause a significant effect without being massively overloaded by on-system gaming is the GeForce GTX 2## series; they have issues with memory speed. If you're just capturing from a console or second PC, even a 450 should work fine.
 

yanis31

Member
well - 450 is much stronger than the 520 (64bit ddr3)...
in fact the mentioned 630 is a rebadged 440! -
but if worst comes to worst i can just grab a used 450...550ti or similar on the 2nd hand market,
seen them around 40 euros...
 

yanis31

Member
Sadly that "gpu" will have to go!
... but i guess i can skip on a new power supply for a while,
its running on a older FSP 400w but i imagine only cpu wont be able to overstress it so i can wait a bit...
the pc is also connected to a older 1280x1024 monitor so i didnt notice issues -
i put a mild 4.3ghz 1.33v overclock with the stock cooler for testing purposes,
"forced" 1920x1080 resolution onto monitor via nvidia control panel and OBS "monitor capture" performance became terrible!
i did a ~10min test stream by playing a 1080p60fps 50meg shadowplay video of game footage fullscreen using MPC / capturing with monitor capture and the stream was very jerky/stuttery! video by itself plays fine, (also tried VLC to make sure the nvidia's video engine wasnt at fault) - some ridiculous amount of duplicated frames were in the log file!
- tested monitor resolution 1280x720 and much better!
cpu around the 60% load area streaming 720p60medium
see attached log file:
 

Attachments

  • 2015-10-30-1154-05.log
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yanis31

Member
WHOA!

i just noticed in the log file it loads DirectX10!
checked on nvidia's website and it says the 520 supports DX12 - but it's not in the list of DX11 support!

didn't realise it's a directx10 card! - could this explain the very poor/jerky monitor capture performance on windows8?

(i believe the monitor capture performance improvements on win 8 compared to 7 had something to do with DX11)

then i must get atleast a gtx560 (perhaps 550ti) or a 600 series + card!
DXdiag shows directx 11 but clearly it must be missing some features in this gpu,
(i believe it was advertised as a Dx11 card but a simple google search indicates alot of it isnt working on these)

EDIT: now i technically don't have a need to use monitor capture on the encoding pc if everything else would work fine ... question is - would it?

actually now im confused - this list must clearly be broken:

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/dx11/supported-gpus

DX12:

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/technology/dx12/supported-gpus

MORE EDIT:
if you look at the GPU product pages on nvidia's site - only starting from 550ti and 460 the page mentions anything about directx11 gaming (560 is technically a 460 rebadge)
 
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yanis31

Member
what do you guys think about a gt730 gddr5? (costs kinda the same as 720 gddr5 :) - but still the 64bit bus,
i was offered a cheap 550ti but im starting to feel reluctant knowing all the random "nvidia driver has crashed and recovered" errors 500 series cards suffer from... does anyone know from what models does AMD have full DX11 support?
 

yanis31

Member
(ok - i later realised its DX10 in the log file on my main system as well)

- Maybe someone could comment on cpu usage using the capture card? - is there any to speak of?
- i put the amd under AIO water so performance wont be much of an issue.. cap card still not delivered,
looks stuck in my town since monday according to tracking...

i feel like i need to make a seperate thread about the gpu...
 

FerretBomb

Active Member
It exists, but it's fairly low. Took three 1080p@60 captures (cap card shootout) plus 1080p@60 x264 Ultrafast encoding to max out my old i7-920 at stock clocks.

Running the SC512 through Amarec 2.20c, I see around an 8-15% CPU load increase at 1080p@60. Not sure how much of that is capture overhead though, and how much is rendering the video to the screen.

Not sure as far as DX11 support. Know my old 6870 does.
The card may be DX11 capable, but OBS uses DX10. It's not going to use a later DX version, as it doesn't use hardware DX11 instructions in the code.
 

yanis31

Member
Thanks! - might be able to get a used 650 2gb gddr5... i figure that should be safe!
interesting bit on the cpu usage! - im glad i have the 5820k to fall back on if i can't stretch it to the setting i want!
i guess we'll see once all parts are here!

Edit: i plugged in the 780 and did a 864p 60 medium test encode:

https://gist.github.com/54e28a662c09bd1bdce0

im curious about the following line:

16:20:53: Using Monitor Capture
16:20:53: Scene buffering time set to 700
16:20:53: x264: MB rate (311040) > level limit (245760)

do you guys know what it means?

(might end up running 720p anyway since even 3500kbps looks a bit too blurry @864p .. will do more testing on that)
 
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yanis31

Member
Got a GTX650 2gb today - ran the same test as in the post above and it produced just a tad bit more duplicated and skipped frames as with the gtx780!
however 0% when running 720_60_medium... so all should be well. - 864_60_medium is too rough for the amd...
- maybe if i took it to 5ghz haha! -but i wouldnt want to deal with that heat and power bill!
 

sam686

Member
The Level x264 chooses depends on resolution, frame rate, bitrate, and number of reference frames (ref=2 in custom setting). Older mobile devices supports only level 3.1 main profile, newer mobile devices supports level 4 or 4.1 high profile, sometimes higher.

1536 x 864 at 60 fps is pushing past level 4.1 decoding speed, reducing compatibility from viewer's mobile devices if streaming on twitch. Try lowering resolution to 1280x720 60 fps. MediaInfo does display the level and profile in .mp4 files.

Wikipedia have a list of h264 levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels
 

yanis31

Member
By the way i somehow completely missed the existance of the Elgato HD 60 PRO...
(~150 eur cheaper and none of this customs nonsense) ... yikes.
kinda sad nobody mentioned it in this thread - but im guessing people have the same vidcap issues as with the micomsoft? - and of course micomsoft has the passthrough which is nice!
also - i know this is totally the wrong forum to ask but does xsplit have these stuttering issues as well if you don't use amarec?
 
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