Question / Help Elgato HD60 and one monitor. Possible?

[Lodey]

I recently picked up an Elgato HD60 for console streaming, I've got it in a chain with an HDCP stripper so it's capturing my PS3 at 1080p 60 FPS. Everything works fine.

Here's the problem, though: the lag. There's no way around it, it's not possible to play a game on the monitor the captured video is being output to with that much delay. My plan was just to play from the OBS window itself, but I didn't really think things through, I thought it wouldn't be re-encoding the data on the fly and creating the lag...if it were raw, digital data being transferred over and then re-encoded by OBS, that'd be a different story I think.

So, my other issue is that I lack the space for another monitor. My desk is full of hardware, room is small, etc. I was wondering if there's anything I can do to work around this limitation. I'd love to be able to stream from my consoles, but I haven't got the room for a dual monitor setup. What can I do? Someone recommended a PCI card, but is that all I can do? Is it lagless?

http://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Intensity-Pro-Editing/dp/B001CN9GEA <-- Example

Please help!

 

[Lain]

People almost never realize that there'll be USB lag with USB 2.0 capture devices. It's unavoidable because the USB 2.0 bandwidth pipe is so low, it has to be encoded by the device to transmit the data, which causes high amounts of latency to the video/audio. PCI-E devices are much more ideal if you want almost no latency. It's pretty much instant and you can actually play your console using OBS itself is the display for it. The HD60 is a really nice device though, outside of the USB 2.0 thing. Really sleek little device.

Blackmagic cards are good, but they are very painful to set up. Personally out of the cards I've used, I prefer avermedia's C985 capture device, which does 720p 60fps or 1080p 30fps. It's a popular device and handles things like scaling pretty well too. Though honestly that's just my opinion. Regardless, pretty much any PCI-E card will work if you really want to have no noticeable latency on the video/audio.

 

[Lodey]

The Avermedia was actually my first choice, but issues people had with firmware updates bricking their devices scared me into getting the Elgato. The 2.0 thing actually was a big deal, but I read their information about how it was the ideal choice...hah.

Could you recommend any PCI-E cards? Thank you.

 

[FerretBomb]

Avermedia and Blackmagic will still have capture delay, even as an internal card. There are some more expensive ones that have less, but there will always be some inherent delay.

Short answer would be "clean up/reorganize your work area to make room".

A second monitor should be considered basic equipment for taking livestreaming at all seriously.

 

[Lodey]

Conflicted on who to believe here, Jim says it's almost instant and you say there's inherent delay...unless you're just stating there's some, it could still be negligible?

I wish it were as easy as just "making room," maybe a mini monitor would work, but I don't think I'd be able to just create space for another monitor.

 

[Lain]

"pretty much instant". It's impossible to capture without some delay, but with PCI-E it's in the tens of milliseconds, with USB 2.0 it's in the thousands. Big distinction.

 

[Lodey]

So long as it's under 8 ms I'm okay with it.

 

[Lain]

I don't think it's 8ms. That's probably asking a bit much. Perhaps 16ms or 33ms depending on the framerate. It's not noticeable even at 33ms from my experience, but that's really only when running at 30fps.

 

[Lodey]

I had an additional question. With this method, would I still be able to hear the outputted sound from the console using the Avermedia? I know the audience would, but it'd be important for me to hear it, too. I pretty much use my Yeti as my sound device, I don't have a mixer. This is no problem for PC streaming, but I wonder how this would work.

Could I also window capture the live output from the Avermedia software?

 

[Lain]

When you're using a PCI-E you can set it to play to desktop and play your console right in the OBS window. At least that's what I do. That's why I implemented the "output to desktop" radio button.

 

[bossjedizohan]

Why don't you just use the HDMI Passthrough and use game capture in OBS to capture the elgato's output? There will be no noticeable latency and aside from streaming your desktop when you're not in game and people being able to see OBS and stuff, it seems like it would solve your problems.

 

[Lodey]

I returned the Elgato yesterday, so I'm going to get the Avermedia PCI-E card. The only thing is about playing in the OBS window is that I use a few overlays (cam, chat, etc.), it'd obstruct my view of the game. Good tip on the output to desktop radio button, I like that.

Boss, not sure I fully understand. How do I use HDMI passthrough with game capture? How would that eliminate the lag if there's an inherent 3 second delay with what the Elgato outputs? I'd like to talk to you about this more in detail, if you wouldn't mind.

I'm new to all of this, so it's confusing. I've reached partnership with just PC streaming, and I wanted to break into the console market with one of these devices, but I have much to learn.

 

[Lodey]

That would really be convenient though, having a zero latency HDMI passthrough that I can just capture as a regular window as I would anything else. That's my end-goal, really.

 

[FerretBomb]

Passthrough, you plug the other end into a TV or monitor, so get zero delay.
Internal Avermedia stuff tends to have about 90-250+ms capture delay, from what I've seen. Way lower than the 1500ms of the Elgato, but not really good enough for tight rhythm games or anything frame-perfect/split-second critical.

Playing on the preview window DOES do something important... it makes you deal with your own overlays. You immediately know if the audience can't see something, and if you're using a super-cluttered setup, it may make you rethink and simplify if it's annoying (looking at anyone with a thousand freaking onscreen scrollers/beggers/last-donators/etc that just look trashy as hell to begin with).

 

[Lodey]

Yeah, I don't use any of those, I just have the cam output and a very sleek chat overlay that displays a max of like 5 lines. But I don't want to see any of it, it's not obtrusive, though.

 

[Lodey]

Ferret, I saw a post of yours on Reddit talking about an internal card, the SC-512N1, and strangely contrary to what you've said here, were advocating even a single monitor setup with it. How's that card working for you? Looks to be the low latency solution to my problem, might pick one up.

 

[FerretBomb]

Yes, the SC-512N1-L is a midrange card; it's a major step up from the starter-grade Avermedia, Elgato, and BlackMagic hardware. It also costs about three times as much. The advice above is mostly in regards to the starter-grade cards you were mentioning.
Top-end cards (like the Datapath Vision series) generally factor into the four digit range and normally only accept DVI/HDMI (so no component/composite) as they expect that all of the rest of the hardware you use is top-end commercial/professional gear.

I'm using the Micomsoft at-current and can play quite effectively on anything that doesn't require frame-perfect timing. But I am also moving to an HDMI matrix switch so I can swap one of my monitors over to being a passthrough in the near future; I just need to take the time to cable it up, which is a pain in the butt. Passthrough is STILL going to be significantly better.