Notebook hardware recommendation for NDI streaming

NdiNic

New Member
Hi, I’m looking for a notebook which will do following in a church:
  • Receiving
    • 2x NDI HX camera signals (low-latency mode in OBS)
    • Or Camcorder via HDMI-USB capture
    • (Rarely Birddog Mini Full NDI)
  • Sending
    • Low-latency (Full) NDI
      • (will be received by LAN and projected in another room)
    • Internet live streaming
  • Everything FullHD p30
  • No recording planned

My current hardware/experience:
Lenovo ThinkBook: i5-1135G7 / Iris Xe Graphics / 16 GB RAMLenovo IdeaPad - i7-1065G7 / Iris Plus Graphics / 8 GB RAM
receiving 1x NDI HX + USB video capture and
sending full NDI scene
receiving 1x NDI HX or
Full NDI (created by Thinkbook)
CPU 35 %
GPU 25 %
CPU 40 %
GPU 80
Lags/Delays

I’ve found that Intel & NVidia NVENC are recommended, so my current choice would be a Lenovo Legion 5i Gen 6 (17" Intel) with i7-11800H & RTX 3060 (6GB)
I’m especially interested to find the right balance between CPU & GPU.
(If of interest further requirements would be 16 GB RAM, 500 GB SSD, Thunderbolt, 17 inch display)

My budget is about 1.500 €, but I don't want to unnecessarily waste money.

Thanks in advance and greetings from Germany!
 

NdiNic

New Member
I’m especially interested to find the right balance between CPU & GPU.

No ideas?

I'm thinking ob buying the Pro Version having an alu chassis:

Is the display worth it?
Regular 17.3"Legion 5i Pro 16"
FullHD16:10 WQXGA (2560 x 1600)
300 nits, 144Hz500 nits, 165Hz
72% NTSC100% sRGB
Dolby Vision™ enabledup to VESA DisplayHDR™ 400 certified
Dolby Vision support
NVIDIA® G-SYNC™
low blue light - TÜV Certification

It's smaller though ...
 

Lawrence_SoCal

Active Member
First, I'd recommend recording. Wherever you livestream to (YouTube, Facebook, etc) will HEAVILY compress the video. It is nice to have a higher quality recording to refer back to. I'd recommend recording, then moving the recoded video to an Archive HDD after service is over. Having such a recording is also really appreciated for families with baptisms, weddings, etc.

With that said, I'd strongly advise on using NDI instead of any other video connectivity approach. NDI enables MUCH longer cable runs (in case you ever want to put a camera in front of the Sanctuary for an audience view. What you don't want is to mix connectivity approaches (USB or HDMI for camera closets to streaming PC, then NDI for distance camera, as you then are dealing with varying processing latencies, and trying to sync that.... no thanks .. not worth it. NDI is you more future-proof and flexible option. The downside is needing a basic understanding of networking to avoid problems. I put our streaming PC and NDI camera behind its own router/firewall, to protect it from the rest of the church network

I started livestreaming HoW last year with an engineering class workstation laptop and a single camera. Between OBS, using PowerPoint for Service Bulletin, monitoring livestream in browser at CDN provider, and NDI PTZ controls, a single monitor just didn't cut it. Don't forget about connecting microphone/audio system (mixer) to stream.
I put dedicated streaming PC tower in closet where we have our sound mixer. Did a little construction, and routed 15 meter DisplayPort and active USB3 cable up to choir loft area, and set up a 'streaming' station (a dual-monitor wall-mount with keyboard & mouse tray, that can lower to floor when not in use). By using DisplayPort MST, I can drive both monitors from a single video cable. By using high-quality active USB cable, no issue there either.

Now, you are asking specs, and as I'm not using your same setup, and you have mentioned what other CPU load you might have (ex ProPresenter, PPT, EasyWorship, etc) not to mention if you plan to use any audio filters? no way for me to guestimate hardware requirements. And then, you have to ask yourself, how long (in years) do you expect this system to last? Is computer expected to handle streaming in 4K in 3-4 years, for example? And being a single point of failure, what level service do you plan to get (ex. next business day onsite? have a spare system just in case, ??) For budget reasons, most Houses of Worship can't afford a spare streaming setup, so have a contingency plan ready

Hopefully someone else will comment on CPU/GPU impact with livestream + NDI output. Especially as you mentioned broadcasting to alternate local room (overflow, cry room, or whatever). And then there is how optimized the Operating System is for efficient operation (vs default settings... could make a 5+% (or more) CPU difference).
one option would be if that CPU load is too much on streaming PC, you could take OBS Projector or similar and use long video cable or use converters to route over Ethernet. Another option would be, depending on bandwidth considerations, is to have alternate room simply watch the livestream. For us the typical 'delay' is only around 15 seconds, so depends on if a 'cry (baby) room' with window into Sanctuary listening to live audio, then a delayed video wouldn't really work. But into a room with no view or direct audio from the Sanctuary, using livestream would be fine (and therefore not impact workload on streaming PC).

The issue in my mind is timing and does it really need to be a laptop. I'd much prefer a AMD Ryzen CPU and nVidia RTX CPU, but getting that with USB4 or Thunderbolt is (near?) impossible. As for Intel Alder Lake, the mobile CPU won't be out until next year. basically... sucks to have to buy a laptop now. From what I've read here, the nVidia Turing vs Ampere NVENC isn't that much difference. Where RTX/Ampere would make a difference, I'm guessing, is if you went to use RTX noise reduction (but recent CPU impact comments say beware of using it in prime time??). I say this as a GTX 1660 Super or better may suffice for 1080p30 GPU encode offload for you. What I'm not sure of is which NDI driver/toolset you plan to use on streaming PC and whether that can use GPU for decoding, or if receiving NDI signals have to be entirely decoded in CPU. And then you have companies like Panasonic, with their VirtualUSB driver that takes their NDI cameras and makes it available on PC as though it was USB attached (avoiding any other NDI drivers/plugins, etc). I don't know about other NDI camera vendors.
I suspect any GPU with Turing or Ampere NVENC will work for you. And you'll be better served in the long run by going with a lower GPU in that range and putting the savings into the CPU
 

NdiNic

New Member
Wow, thanks for your detailed reply :)

We just purchased FullHD-only equipment (PTZ camera, video projector, NDI Encoder/Decoder), so for the next years it won’t be 4K.
This notebook will be dedicated for creating an internal full ndi source and internet live streaming. No sound effects, no other software than OBS.

Unfortunately it has to be a notebook, as in summer we'll have Service outside.
That's why I need Thunderbolt to connect an external monitor etc.
I'll definetely go for a next business day onsite hardware service and extended warranty.

I found the i7-11800H to be the sweet spot. After comes i9 resulting in price jump about 500-1000 €.
Also couldn’t find cheaper laptops with a lower GPU than RTX 3050.

PS: USB-HDMI capture card is just a workaround, as we currently only have one PTZ camera.
I don't like viewers to see rapid camera movements. So I'm switching to an old camcorder filming bird's eye :D
It will be an NDI-only environment ;)
 

Lawrence_SoCal

Active Member
We just purchased FullHD-only equipment (PTZ camera, video projector, NDI Encoder/Decoder), so for the next years it won’t be 4K.
This notebook will be dedicated for creating an internal full ndi source and internet live streaming. No sound effects, no other software than OBS.
Understood. We did similar. The nice part with an NDI PTZ camera is the ability to upgrade to a 4K camera later, and keep/move the 1080p camera for additional camera angles
Unfortunately it has to be a notebook, as in summer we'll have Service outside.
That's why I need Thunderbolt to connect an external monitor etc.
I'll definetely go for a next business day onsite hardware service and extended warranty.
Again, understood, but I setup up our desktop outside for night time Christmas Eve service, Easter, etc. If you are getting a dock, and extra monitor, realistically making it a Tower vs a laptop really isn't going to make that much difference. You still need to run power and Ethernet (and possibly network PoE switch), so you'll need a table for the monitor. So what difference does it make it is a laptop with its own screen, keyboard and mouse, or you've got a PC? Your table setup is going to be about the same size
Oh, and after first time a choir member assumed ok to unplug long extension power cord, I also use a 1000VA battery UPS at the table... just in case ;^)
I found the i7-11800H to be the sweet spot. After comes i9 resulting in price jump about 500-1000 €. Also couldn’t find cheaper laptops with a lower GPU than RTX 3050.
Makes sense, RTX 3050 is lowest end of latest gen, and matches nicely with decent CPU. Agreed i9 is not a good value, and probably complete overkill in this use case

PS: USB-HDMI capture card is just a workaround, as we currently only have one PTZ camera. I don't like viewers to see rapid camera movements. So I'm switching to an old camcorder filming bird's eye :D
It will be an NDI-only environment ;)

Totally understand about camera movement. We currently have only a single NDI PTZ camera, as mentioned. So our viewers do see camera movement (camera is on the entire service, just the amount of 'service bulletin' screen space varies). So after experimenting, a slow camera movement speed works fine. I set presets up wide angle for Pulpit,. Altar and Lectern. Then closer in presets. We go from closer in, to wide-angle preset, over to other position (wide-angle) then zoom in. The one thing not good is our Zoom speed is a little high, I just haven't gotten around to figuring out how to slow it down as Zoom speed is not in the GUI PTZ controls.
Different camera manufactures' have different capabilities (like diagonal movement) and ability to set up a sequence of moves. Even with using Panasonic's free PTZ Control Center software, folks comment that our camera movement looks professional (took time to figure out right speeds and movements, but entirely doable)

Then, don't ignore audio. We have a wireless lavalier microphone for priest, handled mic as spare/misc, and some wired mics for Pulpit and Lectern. These are amplified (a little) in Sanctuary with house speakers (more amplification when outdoors to overcome any traffic noise). I've then set up mics for Pipe Organ/Choir and in a separate area a piano (hand bell choir use same area). These mics are livestreamed (AUX mix) but not amplified in-house. And some mics benefit from using Compression and other audio processing, to sound better when livestreamed to (what is typically) tiny, terrible speakers, not to mention overcoming really high audio compression used by main CDNs.
So my recommendation is to recognize that audio setup for in-person attendance, and for broadcast/livestream will most likely need to be different. And you have to get audio signal into PC. Will that be an analog or digital connection for Audio Input? And if you have a mixer (vs say a wired mic) will you want to be able to control different mic channels (ex Mute a mic when not in use) directly on the streaming PC?
For us, when we are outdoors, our Organist moves the piano outdoors, and has his own small mixer to connect mics for priest, piano, and a couple for singers (choir). Then I grab an analog output and input into OBS PC. I'm using analog connection in the Sanctuary at the moment, as I haven't gotten around to figuring out how to take USB Digital signal from our Presonus mixer, run Presonus' Studio One software (DAW) and get Audio Out to OBS. Then I/we can tweak each mic as desired (and more importantly Mute choir when they forget its a live mic during the service, as they were used to NOT being Mic'ed up until this year).
 

Lawrence_SoCal

Active Member
PS: USB-HDMI capture card is just a workaround, as we currently only have one PTZ camera.
I don't like viewers to see rapid camera movements. So I'm switching to an old camcorder filming bird's eye :D
Yea, I've though of doing something similar (though probably simple/straight USB from webcam or similar). I'm guessing the trick would be to keep it wide angle, so any video sync issues not particularly (if at all) noticeable
 
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