If I used an Atem Mini, would there not be a direct USB connection between the Mini and the laptop? What is the purpose of an Elgato?
Newbie question
- Thread starter Art M
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If I used an Atem Mini, would there not be a direct USB connection between the Mini and the laptop? What is the purpose of an Elgato?
Yes, the XR18 does have a direct digital audio output option via USB. Okay, I will now display my ignorance. What is a Thunderbolt dock and what purpose would it serve?
We aren't planning to stream to people in a Zoom meeting, although that's an intriguing thought. What is a "VB Virtual Cable Audio driver"?
wilderf353
Member
From their website:
Code:
VB-CABLE is a virtual audio device working as virtual audio cable. All
audio coming in the CABLE input is simply forwarded to the CABLE output.More at https://vb-audio.com/Cable/
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
Yup, understood. before going to hybrid service (in-person and livestreaming), we pre-recorded a lot of content (readings, music, etc) and I jumped back and forth between live camera and pre-recorded content. Took me hours ahead of time to get it all set up (and folks not following simple directions, etc). So, yes, livestreaming typically just a morning of type activity. But stress when things go wrong in livestream... ugh..
just beware
Many won't turn off cell phones .. though if elderly and too confusing for them to put phone into silent and/or airplane mode (or just temporarily turn off WiFi), I could see simply powering down. With that said, the real recommendation, to be clear, is to Turn off WiFi (not, not connect, WiFi itself on device needs to be off) if you are using WiFi to stream... which as noted is HIGHLY recommended against. Especially with tech knowledge leave you indicate you have. You are just asking for livestream connections to go sideways, and you will have no idea why or how to fix.
Good luck
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
No, using ATEM mini is possible, but then you switch video on the ATEM not within OBS. If you want use OBS to switch, then computer has to be powerful to real-time decide both incoming video signals. And you would need a capture card capable of multiple inputs (if such a thing exists) or multiple HDMI capture cards. And then you have to be aware of overloading a USB Root Hub. The lower-end the computer (and consumer vs business class machines), in general, the more likely this can happen... but it depends.
In general, the point of an ATEM is to remove the video load on the PC and switch video signals using its interface instead of on the PC
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
I attended a couple of Zoom services... ugh... hated it.
Being a working IT professional, I know that a large scale Zoom meeting can work/run decently, but most folks using Zoom for church don't have a such a setup (nor how to run what they have), so better than nothing...
but given a choice, I'd pick a Content Delivery Network (Facebook/YouTube/Vimeo) style HoW livestream over a Zoom every day. but depends on worship style and size of the group... And for study or small group meeting, Zoom is fine. Just my $0.02 and having time and expertise to set this all up and run it... if pre-pandemic, one had an in-house small group worship style, then Zoom (or similar) might be a good fit. For everyone else, I wouldn't recommend it ... again ... just me... and to re-iterate, Zoom would be better than not streaming at all, in most cases. In my mind, this gets into what is desired/expected in a given worship experience, and how to provide it.
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
It is software to do audio routing on the PC when the default options don't provide what you want/need.
VB in this case, I believe refers to Voice Banana, a well know example of such
A virtual audio driver is something I'm not currently using, and hope not to, but depends on circumstances. The virtual audio loopback adapter I mentioned is one such type of driver/software
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
Thunderbolt is a hardware interface technology, similar to USB. Up until USB4, Thunderbolt tended to be faster than USB. USB4 is based on Thunderbolt. There are significant differences between a Thunderbolt 3 and USB3 dock, less difference with USB4/Thunderbolt 3 or 4. Systems with USB4 or Thunderbolt are less likely to have problems overwhelming USB Root Hubs. Typical Thunderbolt (or USB 3.x) docks is typically to provide extra ports (Video, Ethernet, USB, etc) outside a laptop body
Hey, I had a similar question. What is the point of using a ATEM Mini if you can switch between cam feeds/scenes within OBS. Thanks for this reply its really helpful. So really if you want to use cam feeds using HDMI (instead of NDI and web cams feeds which is what I have been doing), you need something like a ATEM mini to connect the cameras to your computer in the first place. But then it also does switching.
One thing I like about OBS switching is I can layer all the titles and graphic overlays I want to use easily, is ATEM Mini able to do that similar functionality? E.g. Adding intro/holding movies at the start, over laying multiple graphic overlays and titles onto camera feeds?
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
One possible reason for using a video switcher vs multiple direct video feeds into OBS PC and using OBS to switch, is that using an external video switcher means (typically) only a single video stream is sent to OBS PC. That reduces the resource load (CPU and GPU) for decoding/rendering. There are Pro's & Con's to each approach...
konsolenritter
Active Member
The scale seesaws a little bit toward the pro's. ;-)
As said by Lawrence the demands on the pc are lowered by using an external video switch/mixer. Universal tasks like overlays, lower thirds aso. can still be done on pc side in a more flexible way than at the physical mixer (which is bound to a specific subset of features to overlay). And the encoding stage and upload can be handled more flexible on the pc side, too.
And the decrease of demand in terms of much lower usb bandwidth (and ports) used, less driver problems make the pc side more stable. It's a real relief of the strain.
Plus the 'hardware' feature of a physical mixer provides much more stability. Even of a firmware consists of flaws... there are good chances that these will be fixed on a firmware update. The environment in a complex pc setup (think of w10 and its updates) has much more potential flaws and problems regarding specific and individual installation and setup.
So using an external video switcher plus the pc use the best benefit of two worlds. IMHO a good combination.
As said by Lawrence the demands on the pc are lowered by using an external video switch/mixer. Universal tasks like overlays, lower thirds aso. can still be done on pc side in a more flexible way than at the physical mixer (which is bound to a specific subset of features to overlay). And the encoding stage and upload can be handled more flexible on the pc side, too.
And the decrease of demand in terms of much lower usb bandwidth (and ports) used, less driver problems make the pc side more stable. It's a real relief of the strain.
Plus the 'hardware' feature of a physical mixer provides much more stability. Even of a firmware consists of flaws... there are good chances that these will be fixed on a firmware update. The environment in a complex pc setup (think of w10 and its updates) has much more potential flaws and problems regarding specific and individual installation and setup.
So using an external video switcher plus the pc use the best benefit of two worlds. IMHO a good combination.
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
@konsolenritter - This argument could easily get philosophical/religious ;^) And as a former high school debate team member, arguing both sides of an argument is a skill I learned(, as doing so was a competition requirement).
That said, my personal approach, being very skilled at Windows OS mgmt and operations, is to keep the number of parts down. So, by getting a PC that could handle multiple video feeds via NDI, I avoid the extra failure points of a switcher and cable. And the flexibility of showing multiple camera angles at once (Picture-in-Picture), or recording all cameras, etc. So I gain flexibility by doing it all on the PC ... BUT, that is something I know how to monitor and troubleshoot, which may make me an outlier. Oh and not having a PC capable of running even our most basic setup, so getting a new PC that is good for many years means I'm not CPU nor GPU constrained at this point.
As an IT Architect (now), it is about requirements, and what you have to work with.
A Video switcher may or may not be a benefit... it depends ;^) That said, I suspect the largest determining factor here is actually the technical skill of the (usually) volunteer pool running a House of Worship livestream. And is that 1 person or multiple for a given livestream? 1 person is doable in my situation but multiple folks really come in handy if troubleshooting is required, or say mid-service needing to replace battery on wireless mic, etc.
Using a video switcher is probably easier than video switching in OBS for the non-technical (even though it does mean going from OBS PC keyboard/mouse to video switcher and back again)
Another consideration is what all technically comprises a livestream service. For example - If one has a Service Bulletin (liturgy) which is being manually advanced from OBS PC keyboard, then keeping hands on keyboard/mouse may be easier, even to video switch. I also had to consider how we controlled PTZ camera (OBS plugin, other s/w on same PC, mobile device, or external joystick, etc). And then the question of the sound system. IF one is doing everything else on the PC, and it has the horsepower, the video switching on OBS PC may make sense (plan for multiple monitors... which begs the question of physical space available for control station and staff).
That said, my personal approach, being very skilled at Windows OS mgmt and operations, is to keep the number of parts down. So, by getting a PC that could handle multiple video feeds via NDI, I avoid the extra failure points of a switcher and cable. And the flexibility of showing multiple camera angles at once (Picture-in-Picture), or recording all cameras, etc. So I gain flexibility by doing it all on the PC ... BUT, that is something I know how to monitor and troubleshoot, which may make me an outlier. Oh and not having a PC capable of running even our most basic setup, so getting a new PC that is good for many years means I'm not CPU nor GPU constrained at this point.
As an IT Architect (now), it is about requirements, and what you have to work with.
A Video switcher may or may not be a benefit... it depends ;^) That said, I suspect the largest determining factor here is actually the technical skill of the (usually) volunteer pool running a House of Worship livestream. And is that 1 person or multiple for a given livestream? 1 person is doable in my situation but multiple folks really come in handy if troubleshooting is required, or say mid-service needing to replace battery on wireless mic, etc.
Using a video switcher is probably easier than video switching in OBS for the non-technical (even though it does mean going from OBS PC keyboard/mouse to video switcher and back again)
Another consideration is what all technically comprises a livestream service. For example - If one has a Service Bulletin (liturgy) which is being manually advanced from OBS PC keyboard, then keeping hands on keyboard/mouse may be easier, even to video switch. I also had to consider how we controlled PTZ camera (OBS plugin, other s/w on same PC, mobile device, or external joystick, etc). And then the question of the sound system. IF one is doing everything else on the PC, and it has the horsepower, the video switching on OBS PC may make sense (plan for multiple monitors... which begs the question of physical space available for control station and staff).
Yeah the ATEM Mini does seem a bit fiddly interms of adding overlays and lower thirds, especially multiple ones. This is the bit Im a bit confused about, coordinating the switching from cameras on the ATEM Mini, and then if Im right, your suggestion of adding the overlays, lower thirds in OBS.
In the most recent event I did I had this graphical set up in OBS. Scene 1 - Full size camera feed with an animated ident in the top right corner (.mov file). Scene 2 - 2 camera feeds, with a graphical overlay (basically a branded, abstract png image with 2 spaces punched out for the feeds to appear in plus the animate ident). Would I have been able to achieve that using the ATEM Mini and OBS?
Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
Again .. not a user of the Atem system... so I could be way off
I believe one option is to NOT use OBS at all with the Atem Mini (Pro?) and stream direct from that box to your streaming provider
You have less flexibility, but a much simpler interface and operations on the Atem vs OBS. So it depends on what all you are streaming, how you want it to look, and whether your Atem can accomplish what you are after (and capability level of operator). If OBS overwhelms livestream operator, then one may have to simplify or re-work the presentation to work on the Atem. Or you could use the Atem to only switch video feeds (keeping that task and processing off the OBS PC), and do the rest (overlays, watermarks, etc) in OBS.. your approach options are limited primarily only by your imagination.
I believe one option is to NOT use OBS at all with the Atem Mini (Pro?) and stream direct from that box to your streaming provider
You have less flexibility, but a much simpler interface and operations on the Atem vs OBS. So it depends on what all you are streaming, how you want it to look, and whether your Atem can accomplish what you are after (and capability level of operator). If OBS overwhelms livestream operator, then one may have to simplify or re-work the presentation to work on the Atem. Or you could use the Atem to only switch video feeds (keeping that task and processing off the OBS PC), and do the rest (overlays, watermarks, etc) in OBS.. your approach options are limited primarily only by your imagination.
konsolenritter
Active Member
I must advise a little bit against a "one ATEM to rule them all"... ;-)
The ATEM hardware - i'm talking about the mini series here - in its fanless small form factor is a compromise or trade-off between size, weight and processing power. So the encoding stage and depth of its algorithms is heavily capped due to the constraints of the enclosed ic's.
I wouldn't advise to use the ATEM for the encoding stage then. And with former firmware (fixed now, i hope) there were trouble with audio delay or desync. Its a fiddling to handle audio thru the 3.5mm jack for all purposes. (So i'm not talking about the studio grade devices here, which consist of professional grade xlr inputs and audio busses.)
So take the best of all worlds could mean
- the flexibility of OBS for lower-3rds and similar plugins,
- the full processing power of capable cpu's and gpu's
- additional routing for second or third monitors (full screen output for specific sources or scenes, the program,...)
- the support for audio plugins and possibilites for loudness control.
- the stability of ATEM products for video switching in fixed hardware,
- simple interface with distinct illuminated keys for active source/cam,
- greatly reduced video bandwidth on the pc.
If you distributed the tasks over different hardware, there are possibilites for redundancies and/or fallback: If your videofeed fails, sources got stuck and you'll have to reboot your video bus bar or switcher, your streaming guests may (at least) hear the audio and the stream keeps up. If the ATEM is handling all the stuff and has to be rebooted, all is gone.
To repat: just my humble opinion. :D
To give an example (german only, sorry): Replace the ATEM in the scenario above with a Roland VR-50HD, you'll have our scenario from a summer-camp this year. Audio came from a digital foh mixer into the OBS laptop. (In OBS a final compressor and limiter section and a loudness meter, so i controlled the final LUFS going to Youtube.) Video sum came from the roland thru an Elgato HD60S+ into the OBS laptop. Lower-3rds by OBS. Streaming in 720p (due to terrific bad online connection offroad there) and recording 1080p same time.
youtu.be
We streamed and recorded a week long, twice a day. Interesting dialogue partners (as in the example above). (...Yes. We had independent camera operators at hand. But thats not the point.)
(With a lot of brainpower an ATEM could be used for a backup-stream to YT's backup ingestion-server. So if the OBS machine fails, YT switches automatically and falls back to the ATEM. But business before pleasure... ;D )
The ATEM hardware - i'm talking about the mini series here - in its fanless small form factor is a compromise or trade-off between size, weight and processing power. So the encoding stage and depth of its algorithms is heavily capped due to the constraints of the enclosed ic's.
I wouldn't advise to use the ATEM for the encoding stage then. And with former firmware (fixed now, i hope) there were trouble with audio delay or desync. Its a fiddling to handle audio thru the 3.5mm jack for all purposes. (So i'm not talking about the studio grade devices here, which consist of professional grade xlr inputs and audio busses.)
So take the best of all worlds could mean
- the flexibility of OBS for lower-3rds and similar plugins,
- the full processing power of capable cpu's and gpu's
- additional routing for second or third monitors (full screen output for specific sources or scenes, the program,...)
- the support for audio plugins and possibilites for loudness control.
- the stability of ATEM products for video switching in fixed hardware,
- simple interface with distinct illuminated keys for active source/cam,
- greatly reduced video bandwidth on the pc.
If you distributed the tasks over different hardware, there are possibilites for redundancies and/or fallback: If your videofeed fails, sources got stuck and you'll have to reboot your video bus bar or switcher, your streaming guests may (at least) hear the audio and the stream keeps up. If the ATEM is handling all the stuff and has to be rebooted, all is gone.
To repat: just my humble opinion. :D
To give an example (german only, sorry): Replace the ATEM in the scenario above with a Roland VR-50HD, you'll have our scenario from a summer-camp this year. Audio came from a digital foh mixer into the OBS laptop. (In OBS a final compressor and limiter section and a loudness meter, so i controlled the final LUFS going to Youtube.) Video sum came from the roland thru an Elgato HD60S+ into the OBS laptop. Lower-3rds by OBS. Streaming in 720p (due to terrific bad online connection offroad there) and recording 1080p same time.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
youtu.be
We streamed and recorded a week long, twice a day. Interesting dialogue partners (as in the example above). (...Yes. We had independent camera operators at hand. But thats not the point.)
(With a lot of brainpower an ATEM could be used for a backup-stream to YT's backup ingestion-server. So if the OBS machine fails, YT switches automatically and falls back to the ATEM. But business before pleasure... ;D )
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bcoyle
Member
At our church, we have two mixing boards and people to run them. The 2nd mix is for streaming, because the house mix sounds really crappy as stream audio. We have 3 wired (4k) cameras running SDI output (1080p) to cables going to the "control room". We have a atem pro. We have a 4th roaming camera with a video link to the atem. We have a 6th channel coming up from the slide show guy, so basically have 5 live channels going into the atem. The director does the switching on the atem and talks to the camera operators over an intercom telling them what shots he wants. The camera operators are always looking for "good shots" so they have some latitude in framing. The atem pro has the multiview output (8 views for 8 possible video input) going to a monitor in front of the director. Another output goes to mac computer doing the streaming. We have an operator running that along with chat with on-line youtube viewers. They have some sort of free professional chat ware going on with people answering questions etc. We also send the main/ stream output to a black magic recorder for backup. It's pretty straight forward and we don't have any problems. We did have to buy better internet service upload speeds because of dropped frames, but that's about it. If you wish to see our live streams or see previous recorded services, search for 'lifepoint bible church" minden nevada on youtube. Our services are at 830 and 1000. If you wish to talk to the "main guy", I could probably arrange that. Anyway, we avoid multiple obs channel because we let the atem do the heavy lifting and send only one output to the obs computer. Also the atem pro is not that expensive. We do have personal scheduling problems because most of us are volunteers. The main audio guy is payed and the main guy in charge of this all is staff too. Not a horrible big church, but not small either. We talked about streaming before the virus and it didn't go anywhere UNTIL they had to close the in-person attendance. Then it happened. We got the go ahead and money and some very talented people made it happen.
Personally, I'm am a ex-programmer (retired) and am working on a automatic 24/7 creation,compositor and scheduling program that talks to and controls obs. It's almost finished. I was a volunteer at the local public access station that got defunded last year. I wanted to keep that going so decided to write a 24/7 standard tv broadcast type program. with it you can take all your old recorded program and stream them 24/7 with ads, psa, titling and do all sorts of things. It IS NOT A playlist program. Anyway if interested, let me know. I may do a 24/7 stream for the church later. Anyway good Luck
Personally, I'm am a ex-programmer (retired) and am working on a automatic 24/7 creation,compositor and scheduling program that talks to and controls obs. It's almost finished. I was a volunteer at the local public access station that got defunded last year. I wanted to keep that going so decided to write a 24/7 standard tv broadcast type program. with it you can take all your old recorded program and stream them 24/7 with ads, psa, titling and do all sorts of things. It IS NOT A playlist program. Anyway if interested, let me know. I may do a 24/7 stream for the church later. Anyway good Luck
konsolenritter
Active Member
@bcoyle What you said about the situation in your church is nearly the same we had at the summercamp. You need at least five til six people to drive it that level. As Lawrence assumed most churches don't have such a manpower. Most of them are lucky if they have two people per service. Alot ones have just one people capable...
So the generic hints may be:
- Audio is (by far) more important than video.
So if a church has really good equipment or a soundman anyway, this is a big step towarda being listener-friendly. Being in doubt would mean: Leave the video aside, make good podcast-like productions.
- If you can drive video, than having two cam's is to preferred over one single cam.
One single steady cam is - ...alot of... - boring. The eye must be pleased as well.
So its better to have two fixed cams to switch between here and then... Or the next step would be to have one flexible cam for pan/zoom. If its located at the mixing or OBS desk, it may be handled occasionally.
So this is borderline what one person may serve.
With a growing number of involved people further steps often be:
- One person for sound, one for the moveable cam and the video switcher.
- One person as responsible cam operator, the other does sound and casual OBS stuff (observing the stream),
- with one more you can...
If you have a "full-featured team" as described above, with good live communication/talkback between the director and the cam operators, such things are possible (german example again): https://youtu.be/Y4kPp_gWv0o?list=PLuUOLY3OMkEFxhcye8pVILvEkFjEw4OZj&t=4074 The pastor had a really good presentation slides, they left room for the cam operators on nearby half of the frame. So they kept the pastors face on that half of the picture.
So the generic hints may be:
- Audio is (by far) more important than video.
So if a church has really good equipment or a soundman anyway, this is a big step towarda being listener-friendly. Being in doubt would mean: Leave the video aside, make good podcast-like productions.
- If you can drive video, than having two cam's is to preferred over one single cam.
One single steady cam is - ...alot of... - boring. The eye must be pleased as well.
So its better to have two fixed cams to switch between here and then... Or the next step would be to have one flexible cam for pan/zoom. If its located at the mixing or OBS desk, it may be handled occasionally.
So this is borderline what one person may serve.
With a growing number of involved people further steps often be:
- One person for sound, one for the moveable cam and the video switcher.
- One person as responsible cam operator, the other does sound and casual OBS stuff (observing the stream),
- with one more you can...
If you have a "full-featured team" as described above, with good live communication/talkback between the director and the cam operators, such things are possible (german example again): https://youtu.be/Y4kPp_gWv0o?list=PLuUOLY3OMkEFxhcye8pVILvEkFjEw4OZj&t=4074 The pastor had a really good presentation slides, they left room for the cam operators on nearby half of the frame. So they kept the pastors face on that half of the picture.
bcoyle
Member
Yes, we have to simplify at times when people aren't available. There have been a few time s where we only had 1 cam operator. He/She floated around the three cams. We would have a wide shot, a narrower shot and a more custom shot. Essentially spending most of the time on the custom shot and adjusting the fixed narrow shot depending on weather it was worship (band) or sermon. We got too many complaints about bad/poor audio with only 1 audio/soundman using the house output, therefore two audio boards. I suppose they could have one operator if they were careful. Two boards are good for training. We are divided between audio and video teams. The audio/sunday service team consists now of main board and aux board for the stream and a slideshow person. The slides are shown on the big screens but not of our video unless our director wants them also at the start of the service with countdowns and pSA after. , i.e. no pastor in the picture. I think they want people to focus on the pastor directly, not looking at the screens. Also there is a 70 inch screen sitting on the stage next to the pastor, so people can watch the pastor directly and also see the words on the smaller screen next to him.
The obs stream guy takes care of that, the video team doesn't have to worry about that. He also chats with people on-line watching the program.
So min crew would be Audio: one soundman and one slideshow operator(graphics), Video: one cam person (or maybe none if all fixed), one director, Stream: one obs stream guy or the director could do both, so 4 or 5 people.
Most churches probable at least have a sound guy and a slideshow person just for normal - pre-stream services.
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Lawrence_SoCal
Active Member
I will say that we have a single PTZ camera, and after experimenting and really slowing down pan and tilt speeds, along with camera movement planning, we have a decent look with a single camera. And OBS operator is camera director ;^)
More power to you if your HoW can have such a large crew. And agree 2 cameras is better than one, BUT 1 camera, properly positioned and operated, is doable for certain worship styles.
More power to you if your HoW can have such a large crew. And agree 2 cameras is better than one, BUT 1 camera, properly positioned and operated, is doable for certain worship styles.