Newbie question

[Art M]

My church has asked me to set up streaming of our Sunday worship service. This is entirely new for me. I know my way around a Windows laptop and I can record a video with a camera or camcorder but streaming is not something I have done. I will be using the OSB software to do the streaming. I see that there are training resources on the internet but I haven't seen anything that provides tips for setting up streaming with the specific equipment the church has on hand. I will list the equipment here and ask for advice on how best to set it up and whether the church needs to buy more equipment. This is what the church has now:

2 Canon Vixia HF R800 camcorders each with 1 HDMI output jack and 1 2.0 USB output jack
2 tripods
1 Lenovo Carbon X1 laptop, Windows 10, 1 HDMI port, 2 Thunderbolt ports, 2 USB 3.1 ports, 1 headphone/audio jack
1 Behringer XR18 digital mixer
WIFI with good upload speed in the sanctuary
The cameras will be located 25-30 feet from the laptop

One question that comes immediately to mind: Would it be better to use HDMI cables to connect the cameras to the laptop or USB cables?
Any advice that would help get started on the right foot would be greatly appreciated.
-- Art

 

[khaver]

I'm pretty sure the HDMI jack on the laptop is for output to a monitor only. You would need two USB3 or Thunderbolt HDMI capture devices. The USB jack on the camcorder is only for transferring the video and photo files to a computer.

You might want to look at one of the Black Magic Design ATEM devices.

 

[Art M]

Thank you for that very helpful information.
-- Art

 

[Panginu]

My church has asked me to set up streaming of our Sunday worship service. This is entirely new for me. I know my way around a Windows laptop and I can record a video with a camera or camcorder but streaming is not something I have done. I will be using the OSB software to do the streaming. I see that there are training resources on the internet but I haven't seen anything that provides tips for setting up streaming with the specific equipment the church has on hand. I will list the equipment here and ask for advice on how best to set it up and whether the church needs to buy more equipment. This is what the church has now:

2 Canon Vixia HF R800 camcorders each with 1 HDMI output jack and 1 2.0 USB output jack
2 tripods
1 Lenovo Carbon X1 laptop, Windows 10, 1 HDMI port, 2 Thunderbolt ports, 2 USB 3.1 ports, 1 headphone/audio jack
1 Behringer XR18 digital mixer
WIFI with good upload speed in the sanctuary
The cameras will be located 25-30 feet from the laptop

One question that comes immediately to mind: Would it be better to use HDMI cables to connect the cameras to the laptop or USB cables?
Any advice that would help get started on the right foot would be greatly appreciated.
-- Art

HALLO SIR

since your internet speed has a good upload speed, it shouldnt be much of a problem to set up a good stream. I would put your video settings input and output to the standard 1920x1080 (but only if your laptop is in this resolution). Since it is a church sermon, it would be more of interest to have a higher bitrate quality then fps. In output, make sure your streaming settings are set to advanced and set the bitrate to 4500-6000, depending on how fast your upload speed is. FPS in video settings should be set at a comfortable 30 fps (since its not a stream which requires high fps like video games). If you see your stream is stuttering, you can always lower the bitrate, but I would not put the fps below 25. For the camera thing 25 feet is pretty far away, so I would just use HDMI as those cables would probably be longer then USB. GL :DD

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

If you look at my history of posts, you'll see a number of detailed posts on House of Worship streaming (which I started doing, and learning OBS from scratch in March of 2020) and various considerations and recommendations
A couple of general comments
- avoid WiFi if you can. Otherwise, you need to make sure others aren't using it during livestream... seriously. Even folks in person with smartphone with WiFi on, but not authenticated/connected to AP can still cause WiFi issues (nature of WiFi).
- You church's style of worship will dictate some of the audio and video requirements. High Church (liturgical) style will be different than Evangelical and/or Praise (with a band) style. For example, in regards to audio mix settings (set 'n forget vs live Sound Engineer) and whether you will have something like a "service bulletin' to display, vs the more complex lower thirds approach.
- Also, do you use Monitors/Display's within the service (ex Lyrics up on large screen), and will there be shared content?

in terms of your post
- HDMI will most likely be much higher resolution, and be better experience/image than via USB2. But requires capture card as noted in earlier replies. Is running high quality cable from cameras to computer viable? A high quality USB cable at 25ft is fine, but you'll be limited by USB2 bandwidth to a lower resolution (most likely.. .I didn't look up camera specs))
- And if PC in a place to get HDMI cables, then you probably can also run a temporary Ethernet cable to office and not use WiFi
- real-time video encoding is computationally demanding, and laptops can do it, but is generally a poor fit due to thermal throttling (totally doable, but requires attention to detail). In general, a nVidia GPU with NVENC to offload video encoding to the GPU (reducing load on CPU) usually helps, next step down would be Intel's Quickstep (which runs on CPU)
- Be aware that audio mix for in-house attendees will NOT be optimal for stream viewers, especially the vast majority on systems will small, poor speakers. So be prepared to have a Main mix for in-house and an alternate AUX/sub mixer for livestreaming. For example, I've mixed Choir and Pipe Organ, but that isn't amplified for in-house viewers. And read up on audio compression. You can get real in-depth here, needing a dedicated Sound Engineer to run each service
- which brings up the issue of technical sophistication of your livestream team. ALL volunteers, or paid positions? How many folks to run a service and avoiding volunteer burn-out? all important considerations.
- and how is OBS operator going to communicate with camera operators (if not fixed view/position)?
- And like many things, what is your budget? and what is expectation on sophistication level of stream (both audio and visual)? For use, we spent money on a NDI PTZ camera, and dual monitor OBS PC, so entire livestream can be run by a single person.

And then, plan to come up to speed on online streaming options (various Content Delivery Networks - ex YouTube, Facebook, etc), scheduling livestreams, technical requirements, and content for time between starting livestream and when service actually starts (needs to be multiple minutes; we use 5 minutes now, started at 10 minutes)

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

You might want to look at one of the Black Magic Design ATEM devices.

Art
As an FYI, something like the ATEM has a primary implication to be aware of:
The video connections go to that ATEM device (or similar video switcher), and on that device you pick which video input you want, and ONLY that video goes to the computer
- the benefit is the computer only has to process a single video signal. The downside is the computer only has access to that single video signal (so no Picture-in-Picture; any fades done on device not controlled OBS; etc). Handling multiple video stream stakes more compute (and possibly GPU if using encode/decode offload) but then you can see both video streams on PC, possibly record both regardless of which streamed, etc. So .. like a lot of things... it depends

 

[konsolenritter]

The cameras 30 feet away means you need 40 or 50 feet long high quality hdmi cables. Such are possible, but you need extremely good ones. That will work for FullHD. USB over this distance isn't good.
I would recommend going for 1080p30 as production size and framerate in OBS for church services.
Good to hear that you have a normal (quality based) audio mixer like the XR18 (even a tablet mixer). For a high quality audio connection into OBS you additionally need a good quality two-track usb audio-device with real XLR inputs. Those are developed for the appropriate professional (and symmetrical delivered) audio levels provided by audio desks and mixers.

Nearby the laptop you will convert the hdmi signals into usb3 streams (for instance Elgato HD 60S+) with short usb3 cables then. This makes two usb-connections for the cameras and one for audio connection (three in total).

The big picture for OBS then is to have two scenes (at least) to comfortably switch between both cameras or make picture-in-picture tricks (Plan A). All will be setup and composed within OBS.
Those part of OBS could be externalized (Plan B) if you plan to use an external video mixer like Blackmagics Atem Mini. Then the switching between the two cams may be done via the Blackmagic, reducing the computational load on the laptop (and reducing the usb load too) while the usb-connections are just two (one Elgato for the video sum output of the Atem, and one additional for the audio). PiP is possible with the Atem Mini (for the two incoming camera signals) too.

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Regarding CDN - my recommendation woudl be to consider your audience and where they are
Facebook, for example, currently streams at 720p (for non-special program for gamers.. likely to change before long, but not today). But if your users are mostly already on FB, this may make sense. *IF* you schedule livestreams on FB, you get a URL that does NOT require logging into FB to watch (so home users can set up a single URL once on their Roku/whatever, and watch on big screen) and avoid the whole privacy issues with FB logins (I use InPrivate browsing on tablet)

Others prefer YouTube for its higher resolution stream options.
For community involvement/engagement (ie worship experience for remote viewers), I'd recommend NOT streaming to multiple platforms. Pick one and stick to that. Beware the rules of that platform, like copyright especially when it comes to audio

 

[konsolenritter]

For community involvement/engagement (ie worship experience for remote viewers), I'd recommend NOT streaming to multiple platforms.

Hi Lawrence, can you explain this a little bit further? Why not streaming to multiple platforms if you avoid/eliminate your upload as bottleneck?

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Does the XR18 not have a direct digital audio (via USB) output option to connect to streaming PC (no need for Analog XLR connections)?

Regardless of digital or analog signal from mixer, be prepared to deal with Audio/Visual sync in OBS (not hard, but something you have to do manually). Personally I used Ballast Media's free video but there are plenty of other options that are essentially the same thing.

Do you have a Thunderbolt dock for that laptop?

 

[konsolenritter]

Does the XR18 not have a direct digital audio (via USB) output option to connect to streaming PC (no need for Analog XLR connections)?

He is noob, remember. USB multi-track drivers of mixers (wether ASIO or not) aren't quite stable for hours in my experience (not mentioned all the "today windows detected the devices in other order"-problems). A dedicated XLR device openes the possibility to insert passive DI boxes in case of hum or buzz loops established by the churches audio system and the laptop. Electrically isolated "worlds" are often live-savers. :D

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Hi Lawrence, can you explain this a little bit further? Why not streaming to multiple platforms if you avoid/eliminate your upload as bottleneck

Multiple considerations
- from a technical perspective, you can stream to multiple providers from OBS (with custom setup) presuming you have the computational horsepower and upload bandwidth as that often means rendering 2 different video streams (similar to using Studio Mode)
or one can use a service like restream.io to take a single stream and FWD onto multiple CDNs
- However, regardless if one can or not, the issue becomes that engagement model, and for that one has to step back
Is the worship plan to engage the online audience and solicit feedback? Plenty of folks running a service (trying to use generic language here, as this applies to various HoW traditions) have NO intention/interest in changing their delivery style ('sermon' in Christian tradition). Others welcome the new engagement model. so .. it depends.
Then, *if* the plan is to engage livestream audience, what happens if streaming to both YouTube and Facebook (for example). Do you have staff to act as Digital Usher for both CDNs? are you going to put up a chat window to consolidate comments from both? Personally I'd find that a negative thing, but that may be more a comment on our worship style. But having chats in the video stream itself takes away from the worship experience, imho.

For reference, our priest used to ask questions during service and expected responses. It took some getting used to 18 months ago, but priest got used to using phone to monitor comments and respond during livestream only service (I was the only other person there during lockdown). Now that lockdown is lifting, with hybrid service (both in-person and livestream) our priest continues habit of asking for and responding to online (and in-person) responses. Doing so with multi-CDNs... ugh, no thanks.

I'm no fan of FB, by a long shot (I have an IT Security background, amongst others). But it was my recommendation, based on our parish, to use FB for livestreaming (as vast majority already had accounts, and I knew how to get the rest able to watch our livestream without joining FB). And folks with large-screen TVs watching our 720p30 stream at 5000 bitrate so video looks good on their screen, and matters much less on smaller screens. So... keeping it simple and after 18 months, no push to change, so I focus our tech team's efforts elsewhere.
*IF* the thought is having video available on other platforms, where non-members can view/watch stream, then I have 2 thoughts
- if you have the time, budget, inclination, go for it... but consider entire worship experience.
- For those church shopping and now using video vs going in person to check out a new HoW, to watch previously recorded video, one can always upload video to alternate platforms if desired. side note: I record at 1080p in OBS even though streaming at 720p, so we have quality local recording vs the HIGHLY compressed videos that YT and FB create.

 

[wilderf353]

If you are planning to use OBS to steam to people in a Zoom meeting:

1. You can use the built-in OBS virtual webcam to stream the video from OBS to Zoom: in Zoom, configure it to use the OBS webcam.
2. For the audio (on Windows), you can use the VB Virtual Cable Audio driver. We configured OBS to use the virtual cable as a monitor device and in Zoom, we configured it to be used as the microphone
3. Make sure to select the HD option on the settings page at Zoom.us and on the Zoom app settings menu.

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

He is noob, remember. USB multi-track drivers of mixers (wether ASIO or not) aren't quite stable for hours in my experience (not mentioned all the "today windows detected the devices in other order"-problems). A dedicated XLR device openes the possibility to insert passive DI boxes in case of hum or buzz loops established by the churches audio system and the laptop. Electrically isolated "worlds" are often live-savers. :D

Totally get it. I'm still using analog connection, with adapters to match impedance/gain, etc to connect Presonus AR12 USB to streaming PC. Fortunately we have a member who setup up the audio system, who had adapters and came in to tweak the analog connection for us (his ears way better than mine).
There is supposedly a way to use Presonus' Studio One DAW without having to use a virtual h/w adapter. And not have to update to their 'Pro' license to get the new Listen Bus (v5) ... but focus has been elsewhere. But something I hope to get to soon as we need to Mute certain mics and currently physical mixer is a closet under choir balcony where livestream is run from (streaming PC in same closet, using 50' DP and USB cables for keyboard, mouse and dual monitor (love DP MST)...so hands on physical mixer during service isn't really an option for us

 

[konsolenritter]

@Lawrence_SoCal That sounds like y're about changing the presonus in a not-really-far-future. ;-)
Can recommend soundcraft ui24r (not the smaller ones!) or similar from other brands. The external interface i would keep in any case (for reasons described, even if the mixer has to be changed due to repair or something alike).

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

@Lawrence_SoCal That sounds like y're about changing the presonus in a not-really-far-future. ;-)

I really hope not. I'll explain
- The mixer has served the parish well, and other than livestreaming, is doing exactly as is needed of it. And what I want is an optimization, as what we have now is working.. mostly... issue is there is an echo I find distracting, which I suspect is coming from Pipe Organ mic at back of sanctuary picking up amplified wireless lav mic on priest.. but only audible at certain quiet portions of service.... so no one really complaining, just me knowing it could be better. Oh, and the fact that on the Presonus support forum I've read folks saying they got it to work

- However, with livestreaming an need for additional microphones may, eventually, end up requiring a mixer with more channels.
side note: at this point, I have set up 2 quad-channel XLR-to-Ethernet adapters, #1 for Pipe Organ/choir upstairs in loft using a Shure VP88 stereo mic, and #2 by piano in main Sanctuary floor. That #2 area is also used by Bell Choir. The issue is that I can only hook up 2 channels from each of those, and then we are using every possible audio input on the mixer. So, if I need more than 2 microphones (adapter has 4 XLR ports) by either adapter, then I have to unplug something else... so far, we've been fine, but only resumed in-person service in June). So I won't be surprised if at some point, we run into a conflict and don't have enough channels. Then, if someone contributes, then I can see us getting a larger channel mixer. but probably not before then. Why?
Well,
1. standard HoW budget constraint first and foremost, especially considering what has already been spent (PC, monitors, cables, network gear, NDI PTZ camera, construction contracted out and overseen by someone else and royally screwed up, etc.). And with in-person service having resumed, online audience isn't that large (material, but...)
2. what we have now, works, for the most part. My perfectionism would like our audio to be a bit better, and to do that would require either

a. staff a dedicated sound 'engineer' standing at the mixer the entire service to make adjustments.... and that isn't likely to happen in my lifetime ;^) we struggle to find enough Tech team volunteers to run OBS​

or​

b. I add to the already challenging job of person at OBS streaming PC keyboard (also handling PTZ camera controls via s/w interface) by adding a multi-channel audio interface (probably on 2nd monitor along with PTZ controls) to enable selectively Mute or maybe drop gain by 1/2?? to leave sense of ambiance/audience? certain Mic(s)​

So, the issue for us is the Presonus support model (which is not unreasonable, just in my way at the moment through no fault of Presonus). I've read in their support forums that people got this to work (USB audio signal out of Presonus to Studio One on PC and output to OBS). But the one published KB for PC hookup assume audio editing on PC, and signal back to mixer and audio to Main Out ... which isn't what I want/need [doesn't meet our requirements, and requires not using the return channel which we have an audio device plugged into). Our mixer is registered to a parish member who has resisted helping so far (and calling Presonus support/getting help is restricted to registered owners) ... so I'll simply back-burnered this audio optimization. I tend to not let things like this go... so maybe later this month or next, I'll pursue

so that was a long answer, helpfully giving OP some context of what they are getting themselves into

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Can recommend soundcraft ui24r (not the smaller ones!) or similar from other brands. The external interface i would keep in any case (for reasons described, even if the mixer has to be changed due to repair or something alike).

What I will say is that it appears that many Mixer vendor's digital audio workstation (DAW) software packages are like the Presonus in that, due to Windows OS and x86 hardware architecture, they do not create/have an application audio software output interface. Studio One will output no problem to a hardware interface, and I could run a cable from PC's Speaker out to Mic in (with adapter for gain, etc). Or use 3rd party software to trick Presonus' Studio One to thinking it is outputting to a hardware interface (a virtual audio lookback adapter). But I'm a K.I.S.S sort of person, knowing that every single extra piece in the chain is a potential failure point, and adds to technical complexity for non-technical volunteers. So I'd prefer a direct solution. And converting to analog seems to me to be a potential for signal compromise and PC has to re-encode into digital for processing by OBS and streaming/recording it. So why go through extra modulation steps?
This consideration applies to whichever vendor/mixer one is interested in
I recognize I may have not looked into software audio loopback adapters deeply enough, and shouldn't be concerned??
And I've come across references to other mixer vendors having some design approach/limitation. Though, with pandemic and desire for livestreaming, I won't be surprised to see more DAWs enable a software audio output

If someone has a recommendation of a Mixer of similar quality to Presonus, that has a DAW with s/w audio out and easy addition as Audio Input in OBS, please let me (us) know.
I see 2 approaches.
- the ASIO type approach and adding each channel individually into OBS. I'm thinking that might work with a small number of channels (and as mentioned the technical know-how to oversee Windows OS handling of device enumeration).
a side thought is that using OBS' Audio MiIxer with a dozen channels seems problematic. Hence my thought of using a DAW... But maybe if there was a plug-in for such?
- But for a larger number of mic channels (I'm thinking more than 4, but ??) that using a DAW makes more sense, where one can create groupings of Mics, and have better control. You just need an audio monitor/control system capable of handling mixer digital output and then can create Audio interface for DAW out to OBS Audio Input [ Digital from mixer over USB to DAW s/w to OBS.] The other benefit of using a DAW, depending on which one and licensed features, is the ability (with enough CPU horsepower to support such) to add channel specific filters and effects. [OBS has these, but back to Mixer interface issue and sophistication/maturity of those filters/effects]
Now, it could be that if we don't need to expand channels, there may be a different DAW that works with our mixer and does what I want (with a lot less complexity that a typical DAW would be nice... DAWs appear more complex than OBS! ;^). Or maybe pay not that much and upgrade Studio One v5 to Pro and get Listen Bus (again, I'm suspecting something like VoiceBanana may be all we need now, and I'm the problem...)

anyway, had some spare time today... so lots of typing...

 

[Art M]

HALLO SIR

since your internet speed has a good upload speed, it shouldnt be much of a problem to set up a good stream. I would put your video settings input and output to the standard 1920x1080 (but only if your laptop is in this resolution). Since it is a church sermon, it would be more of interest to have a higher bitrate quality then fps. In output, make sure your streaming settings are set to advanced and set the bitrate to 4500-6000, depending on how fast your upload speed is. FPS in video settings should be set at a comfortable 30 fps (since its not a stream which requires high fps like video games). If you see your stream is stuttering, you can always lower the bitrate, but I would not put the fps below 25. For the camera thing 25 feet is pretty far away, so I would just use HDMI as those cables would probably be longer then USB. GL :DD

Thank you for the good advice!
- Art

 

[Art M]

If you look at my history of posts, you'll see a number of detailed posts on House of Worship streaming (which I started doing, and learning OBS from scratch in March of 2020) and various considerations and recommendations
A couple of general comments
- avoid WiFi if you can. Otherwise, you need to make sure others aren't using it during livestream... seriously. Even folks in person with smartphone with WiFi on, but not authenticated/connected to AP can still cause WiFi issues (nature of WiFi).
- You church's style of worship will dictate some of the audio and video requirements. High Church (liturgical) style will be different than Evangelical and/or Praise (with a band) style. For example, in regards to audio mix settings (set 'n forget vs live Sound Engineer) and whether you will have something like a "service bulletin' to display, vs the more complex lower thirds approach.
- Also, do you use Monitors/Display's within the service (ex Lyrics up on large screen), and will there be shared content?

in terms of your post
- HDMI will most likely be much higher resolution, and be better experience/image than via USB2. But requires capture card as noted in earlier replies. Is running high quality cable from cameras to computer viable? A high quality USB cable at 25ft is fine, but you'll be limited by USB2 bandwidth to a lower resolution (most likely.. .I didn't look up camera specs))
- And if PC in a place to get HDMI cables, then you probably can also run a temporary Ethernet cable to office and not use WiFi
- real-time video encoding is computationally demanding, and laptops can do it, but is generally a poor fit due to thermal throttling (totally doable, but requires attention to detail). In general, a nVidia GPU with NVENC to offload video encoding to the GPU (reducing load on CPU) usually helps, next step down would be Intel's Quickstep (which runs on CPU)
- Be aware that audio mix for in-house attendees will NOT be optimal for stream viewers, especially the vast majority on systems will small, poor speakers. So be prepared to have a Main mix for in-house and an alternate AUX/sub mixer for livestreaming. For example, I've mixed Choir and Pipe Organ, but that isn't amplified for in-house viewers. And read up on audio compression. You can get real in-depth here, needing a dedicated Sound Engineer to run each service
- which brings up the issue of technical sophistication of your livestream team. ALL volunteers, or paid positions? How many folks to run a service and avoiding volunteer burn-out? all important considerations.
- and how is OBS operator going to communicate with camera operators (if not fixed view/position)?
- And like many things, what is your budget? and what is expectation on sophistication level of stream (both audio and visual)? For use, we spent money on a NDI PTZ camera, and dual monitor OBS PC, so entire livestream can be run by a single person.

And then, plan to come up to speed on online streaming options (various Content Delivery Networks - ex YouTube, Facebook, etc), scheduling livestreams, technical requirements, and content for time between starting livestream and when service actually starts (needs to be multiple minutes; we use 5 minutes now, started at 10 minutes)

Thank for sharing your experience. You ask the right questions.

There are limitations to what our church can do. Budget is one. We are having to do a major repair job on the church building and will have little money to spare for additional equipment. We use volunteers as much as possible and I am the one and only volunteer that will be doing the streaming. We are an elderly congregation. I am 72 and am one of the younger members. I volunteered because everyone else in the congregation is less tech capable than I, and I am not very capable. I've had a year using our Behringer XR18 mixer and probably know how to use 30% of its capabilities. For the past year I have been recording our Sunday worship service. I set up two camcorders, one focused on the pulpit and one on the choir, control sound levels during the service, and record the audio from the mixer. Then I pack it all up and go home and spend the afternoon editing it all and posting it on Vimeo for our stay-at- (care) home congregants to watch. So burnout is an issue as I am feeling that I am on the road to burnout. Streaming will reduce the workload as once the service has streamed, I can pack up and go home and enjoy a Sabbath rest.

So the goal is to keep things as simple as possible and reduce my workload as much as possible. Re cell phone interference, we will ask our congregation to turn off their cell phones. The graphics card in the laptop is an Intel UHD Graphics 620. I have no idea what that implies.

 

[Art M]

Art
As an FYI, something like the ATEM has a primary implication to be aware of:
The video connections go to that ATEM device (or similar video switcher), and on that device you pick which video input you want, and ONLY that video goes to the computer
- the benefit is the computer only has to process a single video signal. The downside is the computer only has access to that single video signal (so no Picture-in-Picture; any fades done on device not controlled OBS; etc). Handling multiple video stream stakes more compute (and possibly GPU if using encode/decode offload) but then you can see both video streams on PC, possibly record both regardless of which streamed, etc. So .. like a lot of things... it depends

So with two camcorders and two HDMI cables from each, how do I connect them to the laptop so that I can switch between them using the OBS software? I thought I could do that if we used an ATEM mini but from what you say, that doesn't seem possible.
-- Art