Need some help with suitable hardware for OBS

[ibowden]

Hello!

I am on a quest to suitably outfit a church for live-streaming, knowing that OBS is probably going to be my "switchboard" of choice. However, this enquiry doesn't ask for help with OBS specifically, but rather the hardware that I might use for this project. I hope that some of you might be able to offer some strategies and even specific products that might suit the needs of my congregation, which has very little money.

Please forgive the length of this post. My point in offering up a lot of information is so that you know where I've been and where I want to go and you won't be suggesting things I've already tried or have deemed unsuitable.

My need is to be able to broadcast three or four specific and consistent scenes/places (e.g. lectern, altar) that could be easily switched-to through OBS. Rather than use a PTZ camera (more on that later), my current aim is to employ separate and dedicated cameras, each set up and focused on a specific and unchanging place. The audio feed for this setup is USB from our mixing board, which I've got working in OBS.

So far I have used a couple of Wyze 3 cameras in testing things out. Despite having decent wi-fi in this space, I have found them to lag far too much to be usable. I'm not sure if it's wi-fi specifically that's slowing them down, or just the processing speed of these neat little cameras. Sometimes it's as long as 4-5 seconds before the video signal makes its way into OBS via RTSP and a synch offset of this length of time is longer than OBS provides! I've also found the images from these cameras to be too wide-angle and distorted; good for security but not for targeting a specific and relatively small area, which is what I need to have.

So, the results of my first experiment are that the cameras must be Ethernet-connected to cut lag to a minimum and of a longer focal length than many security cameras. My network installation definitely has the capability of a POE switch to power those cameras, probably all hung from the ceiling.

Another test I've done was with a cheap Chinese PTZ camera. I was able to connect this to the church's network via Ethernet and get its signal into OBS via RTSP. Hypothetically, such a camera could cover three or even more areas I wish to be able to focus on, but it requires the use of a separate software program to control the camera's PTZ functions. Adding another computer and complexity to the task of running OBS is a non-starter here; the people who are going to be using OBS and this system are not highly computer-literate. I realize that there are boxes with a joystick and buttons that can be used to control such cameras, but they're expensive and it's another place for things to go wrong. If the PTZ camera was programmable for 3-5 camera angles and focal lengths and these could be accessed easily via OBS's scenes function, this would be perfect - but I don't think that's possible. I guess I could buy a few more cheap PTZ cameras and just set each one up and never change their aspects, but I haven't been able to find a specific brand or model that indicates it directly supports RTSP or that anyone suggests is reliable.

My aim is to be able to do this project for less than $500, including 2-4 cameras and the POE switch, which I think is about $150 alone. And I am very computer-literate but want regular folks to be able to run this system each week. I'm located in Canada, so any gear that's available in the US or here would be suitable.

Thanks in advance for any advice that can be offered.

 

[cyclemat]

For 500 bucks i See dark when you Want good quality Problem on the most Cheap ptz cams that you have delay and this delay ca be up to 3 second and more so you need a good PC to buffer

The other Problem is the Low framerate most cams stutters and ghosting

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

The issue with cheap RTSP cameras is they tend to have low-end chipsets and are NOT focused on low latency, nor consistent latency. So using such cameras in this setting can be a 'challenge' at best. Then, those cameras may be fighting each other for WiFi bandwidth, making things even worse.
So, for a new install, I'd advise NDI instead of RTSP, and that will typically cost more, but then your focus can be on presentation than tech troubleshooting. And no, PTZ controls does NOT require a 2nd PC. There are plugins in OBS, hardware controllers, and more options.. depends on preference and budget. I went free s/w control with non-OBS plugin software, so am using a 2nd monitor to make it easier on myself. But a recent VISCA over IP PTZ plugin may get me to switch... we'll see.
And yes, you can combine an OBS scene with a PTZ camera movement [couple of options come to mind on how to accomplish this]

Having multiple cameras means more decoding work for PC, typically as it has to decode all video feeds, allowing you to pick the desired one. A single PTZ camera is doable, with right motion speed [we do it, and I'm told the look is professional. It did take planning to make pan tilt and zoom while live look good, and most of our camera movements via presets]

As for positioning, a common recommendation is to mimic a person view, with will be lower than a typical ceiling mounting, but you have to be high enough to see over people's heads when they stand.
As for PC, requirements depends on # of video feeds, plugins, effects, etc. Does your $500 budget include a PC powerful enough for this? presumably not. Also, I had a spare router, which I put in front of a PoE switch, so streaming OBS PC is isolated/protected from rest of church network. And don't forget making sure bandwidth available for live stream (so QoS), and/or making sure Guest WiFi NOT on during service, office PCs not on (someone will forget and be uploading syncing to cloud file storage and black stream... don't ask how I know, etc.

I'm techie, and you can see from my posts here. But our setup can be run by non-technical people after a little training. I only need to handle odd troubleshooting.
Other random thoughts
- Also, our audience really likes having a service bulletin (liturgy) displayed. Obviously depends on worship style as to whether than is important or not
- beware going too cheap on the camera(s). Most Sanctuaries aren't that well light, and cheap cameras suffer in low light... so beware. I'd much rather spend more on a single decent camera than multiple bad cameras... but .. depends
- with such a low budget, I'd consider passing on the PoE switch and just get a PoE injector for a single camera. Maybe something like the AIDA Imaging HD-NDI-200 Full HD IP / NDI|HX2 $500 with optional Interchangeable lens https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1580290-REG/aida_imaging_hd_ndi_200_full_hd_ndi_hx2_hdmi.html and put that on top of a gimbal head tripod.. maybe? I'm looking that NDI camera for fixed position 2nd and 3rd camera angles (like wide angle organist & choir in choir loft in front of pipe organ, and another wide angle of entire front of Sanctuary)... but just wishful thinking at the moment.

Feel free to reach out to me directly at this site. I've helped other Houses of Worship with their livestream setup and happy to chat with you as well if desired

 

[ibowden]

Thank you, Lawrence, for your very helpful and informed response. (I'm assuming that's your first name from your username. My name is Ian.)
Thanks for the warning about RTSP and latency with budget-priced cameras - even if they're connected via Ethernet, which was and still is my eventual aim for ongoing connection stability. And if NDI is a better protocol overall, then that's what I'll be aiming at.
A few thoughts and further info to throw back at you:

• Presumably, this NDI protocol is supported by OBS and I will be able to choose one or more cameras in the software in a similar way to what I've experienced with RTSP.
• Any online searches I do for video cameras with NDI come up empty and even the cited AIDA site doesn't mention that their cameras support this. Am I searching improperly?
• My budget of $500 didn't include a PC (we already have a relatively modern and powerful laptop for this task), but did include the camera(s) and potentially an Ethernet switch, POE or not.
• If we could get away with a single PTZ camera that would be brilliant! I'd eventually hang it upside down from the ceiling. Like you suggested, I'd have it suspended at a point where it was maybe one or two metres over the heads of standing people below in order to provide a congregant-like vantage point. If the camera were programmable for perhaps three to six "views" (e.g. lectern, altar, music area, back of the sanctuary) and these could be accessed by clicking specific OBS scenes, each of which would result in some smooth and fluid panning, tilting, and zooming by the camera, that would be awesome!
• I might initially try the camera on a tripod, near the front of the sanctuary. However, it would almost certainly need to be then interfaced through wi-fi and I'd have to figure out how to power it for maybe 90 minutes to avoid having to run power cables over to it.
• I've gone to AIDA Imaging's website to find their PTZ cameras start at about three times our overall budget! Can you suggest a manufacturer and even specific model that might suit the bill for us and be less than $400?
• We use a liturgy-projecting software program called Proclaim to show on a couple of large screens for those attending services in person. I'm sure there's a way for us to pipe this into OBS and was leaving that for a later time, once we've got the basic system up and running. If we go there, the output will need reformatting somehow to exist in some sort of picture-in-picture display on people's home computer screens.

I look forward to your response.
Blessings!
Ian

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Presumably, this NDI protocol is supported by OBS and I will be able to choose one or more cameras in the software in a similar way to what I've experienced with RTSP.

Well, sort of/not exactly. Even RTSP, if believe means you end up using VLC and configuring it accept incoming feed?? No, OBS up to and including v27 do not natively accept incoming NDI video signal. But that simply means you add the free NewTek NDI Tools s/w package. For Panasonic, they provider a VirtualUSB driver that takes NDI feed and makes it appear like locally connected USB webcam. I'm sure there are others/similar. So slightly different than RTSP, but similar enough not to worry

Any online searches I do for video cameras with NDI come up empty and even the cited AIDA site doesn't mention that their cameras support this. Am I searching improperly?

Uh, yea, not sure what you are searching, but definitely doing something 'odd' as there are LOTS of NDI cameras. And at aidaimaging.com, right on home page is link to NDI compatible model cameras. There are numerous knock-off PTZ NDI cameras (poor English translations, unknown support, etc). And then the more well established PTZ vendors and all have models that support NDI
Maybe try searching for "NDI camera" instead or "NDI PTZ camera"... though NDI PTZ will be well above your budget

https://aidaimaging.com/ndi/ lists multiple models, with a bunch of new models to be released in April of 2022
IF someone already has a camera, there are adapters that can accept HDMI, SDI, etc input and adapt/convert to NDI over Ethernet [though you won't' get camera controls with an adapted solution going this route, but a possibility if one already has a camera and trying to absolutely cheapest setup route.

If we could get away with a single PTZ camera that would be brilliant! I'd eventually hang it upside down from the ceiling. Like you suggested, I'd have it suspended at a point where it was maybe one or two metres over the heads of standing people below in order to provide a congregant-like vantage point. If the camera were programmable for perhaps three to six "views" (e.g. lectern, altar, music area, back of the sanctuary) and these could be accessed by clicking specific OBS scenes, each of which would result in some smooth and fluid panning, tilting, and zooming by the camera, that would be awesome!

• I might initially try the camera on a tripod, near the front of the sanctuary. However, it would almost certainly need to be then interfaced through wi-fi and I'd have to figure out how to power it for maybe 90 minutes to avoid having to run power cables over to it.

We started with a USB webcam (Logitech C920) direct connected to laptop, when there was no one else present (no in-person worship). Once we got the PTZ camera, I mounted it on a table on a steady tripod to get to approximate position where we'd mount it (upside down on face of choir/pipe organ loft, mounted low enough that camera can rotate around and see entrance area, and this works well). As we got closer to resuming in-person worship, a parish member who does wood work created a custom mount, and this has worked fine (vs needing an anti-vibration mount due to being in the middle of a 40ft span. With built-in optical image stabilization, as long as choir is considerate, image (camera) doesn't wobble. The PTZ camera is mounted is about 7 to 8ft above floor level, approx 50ft from alter. It is a 22x optical zoom model that I have (which is more than needed, but 10x optical zoom wouldn't have been enough)

I've gone to AIDA Imaging's website to find their PTZ cameras start at about three times our overall budget! Can you suggest a manufacturer and even specific model that might suit the bill for us and be less than $400?

Typical quality 1080p 20x NDI PTZ cameras are around $2,000, the recent knock-offs being about $1,000 [but uncertain motor smoothness, optical clarity, and low light image quality ... not uncommon to get what you pay for] The Aida HD-NDI-200 is NOT PTZ, and is listed at B&H for $500. For us, $500 vs $2K sounds great, especially for cameras that don't need to be PTZ [nice but not need to have]. I've not searched that hard, and haven't seen a cheaper NDI option, though maybe Aida new options coming out in a couple of months??? The nice part of the HD-NDI-200 is teh interchangeable lens (not during livestream) but that way you can mount camera where it makes sense, and then get right lens for angle/perspective desired, vs cropping video and losing imaging resolution

We use a liturgy-projecting software program called Proclaim to show on a couple of large screens for those attending services in person. I'm sure there's a way for us to pipe this into OBS and was leaving that for a later time, once we've got the basic system up and running. If we go there, the output will need reformatting somehow to exist in some sort of picture-in-picture display on people's home computer screens.

Numerous options. We use PowerPoint, which is extra work, but was chosen initially as available/already licensed on machine, and we could easily edit right before a service. With resumption of in-person, our service bulletin is handed out on paper, from a Word doc (I believe), so relatively easy to copy 'n pate into PPTx. PPTx and OBS, and camera controls all run on a single PC (dual monitor, with 2nd monitor only needed due to the camera control s/w we are using. There is a PTZ plugin for OBS that could probably get us back to a single monitor if that mattered to us (and it doesn't as we are up out of sight in choir loft with a permanent dual-monitor & keyboard mount)
As for re-formatting, yes as you are bound to be using full-screen landscape projection and you can't have both that and video. In our case, I use PPTx windowed slide (in Portrait orientation, 1080 pixels tall) on left side of OBS canvas, and then use OBS scenes to vary how much of the PPTx slide I see (Full Slide, Partial (which means I extend video view over approx 1/2 the slide), and No Slide (ie Full Screen video) depending on Slide content and what is going on in the service

Ideally you'd have one source and minimize (volunteer) effort, but depends on what you have and what your requirements are. Regardless, be sure to test ahead of time with various layouts and how it looks on screen. This means having an understanding of those watching on a phone (so any words likely to be too small to be readable, regardless) vs tablet/computer or TV

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Further thought regarding budget.
- $500 plus seems expensive compared to IP Security cameras and webcams. However, one should take into account requirements, and that sometimes eliminates the lower-cost options. For example, a webcam's focus /depth of field often means they look terrible at more than 10ft (if even that distance). And USB cable length limits/implications [some churches setup multiple webcams with high-quality, long USB cables and got that working.. but now you have cables crossing the floor]. The cheap IP security have numerous challenges for livestreaming. The cheaper cameras are only 15fps (not 25 or 30, depending on EMEA vs North America). And poor/cheap motor movement, poor low-light capability, and low and/or consistent latency not a design requirement for such systems. Can such cameras work, maybe, depending on situation. just be prepared for trial and error on finding something that works as you require. For example, do you expect image to look ok when livestreaming common nighttime services (like Ash Wed, Christmas Eve, etc). Would your Parish/congregation accept a candlelight procession that requires all lighting to be on? Then again, with low budget, your folks may accept limitations and be happy they have something at all? [though trust, the requests for improvements from the elderly folks will be constant. And needing to educate/troubleshoot those same folks devices, home WiFi, etc...]

For single (or even future dual) camera, I'd go PoE injector vs switch with a tight budget (unless you need to buy a switch anyway).
Starting with a simple setup (maybe the Aida fixed position camera) and then wait for someone to ask for more/better/close-up, then say, 'well, with $X we could buy a camera that would enable that', and let them work out getting donations... I did parish newsletter articles laying out what we could do, and what it would cost for livestreaming, and folks donated specifically for the setup (and more than enough money). I mention this as it may only take 1 or 2 generous members to fund what you need

 

[cyclemat]

the problem is you need a PC the a I7 5000 series work but need 16 gb and a SSD and only has Quicksync and the quality is not the best then you need 750 GTX for Nvenc.

the cams you say all for surveillance to no realtime piture and you have many problems with the picture audio sync.

and stream only with a cam to youtube or Facebook is shitty you need to update streamkeys and must have to know what you do !

 

[Uzer2103]

Here is some good camera network:
- Cheap All in one PC Intel Dual Core 2GB Ram (4GB is better)
- Old XMEYE based CCTV DVR 4 Channel with analog Camera, with old H.264 codec (best if it's AHD mode with 2MP or 4MP resolution, and you need to change the lens into Zoom-fixed type lens for best picture)
- Cheap small mic with modified analog cable attach to end-speaker local audio system.

It only cost you under $400 if you set it the wright way. See all my video's with all that topology and system in my Facebook page: www.fb.me/tarbiyahbpp

Newer codec such as H.265 is a bit complicated because it use some encryption that some RTSP protocol cannot read/display. Best way is to screen capture the browser display but you gonna need more juice with your PC