Hi8 Tape to Laptop out of sync

[Suslik V]

There is chance that you can spend more time on finding good device that can do the job in one click. Rather than fitting manually (in the editor) the audio track into your video.

About the media player.
VLC player usually has main menu Help > About that clearly says if you are using the VLC player.

 

[AaronD]

not Windows media player

Agreed. Windoze Media Player *used* to be good, but the current version is not. Use anything else, but not that.

I believe it is using VLC player. Is there a way I can check?

VLC's icon is a traffic cone. Pretty distinctive.

If it is using VLC would it also burn it that way on a disc. I did burn some on a disc and the delay is there also.

It'll produce a disc with what it gets. If what it gets is already out of sync, then the disc will be too.

I'm pretty sure the de-sync is in the files, and so any player or disc burner will inherit it.

As mentioned previously, your system load could be an issue. If you're maxed out while recording, then it might not necessarily put things in the right place, just because it can't get to them in time.
Can you have Windows' Task Manager open while you record one, and see what the load really is? OBS tries to tell you in the bottom right corner, but it can only measure itself and not the entire system, so that number doesn't really mean much.

As an example of possibility, I have a laptop (not my daily driver) that I left watching a bread machine for its entire cycle to see when it would lose its mind. (it worked perfectly while it was being watched) "Ice cube" camera, connected the same way as your camcorder, and I had to turn it all the way down to 10 frames per second at 640x480, before the system load came off the peg. That's fine for troubleshooting a bread machine, but I think you want something better than that for preserving memories! If your machine is comparable to that laptop, then you definitely need a better machine!

 

[AaronD]

The only thing I wonder is the frame rate. If you're capturing a NTSC source, that should be 29.97 fps, not 30 fps. It makes a difference on the long run, since 29.97 fps is 2997 frames in 100 seconds and 30 fps is 3000 frames in 100 seconds - 3 frames less, which is a few milliseconds that add up over an hour long video to a small audio/video discrepancy.

I don't *think* that would be an issue. I would expect it to duplicate or drop a frame every once in a while, and likewise for audio samples, to keep both aligned to an independent standard no matter what.

However, the system load as mentioned previously, and the complex system of buffers to allow a non-dedicated multitasking system to handle continuous streams smoothly, can both mess with that expectation.

As another example of possibility: OBS's Monitor, which a lot of people use to feed their headphones or studio speakers, seems to have been written with a remote streaming mindset instead of local sync. That is, if something goes wrong, it expands the buffer so that future problems can be corrected before that data is needed to play out. That's great if you only have access to the outgoing result (streaming movies, for example), but for OBS's Monitor, it must remain sync'ed to the raw mic in order to be useful at all...which it does not for some sound cards, becoming further and further behind as time goes on.
The reason probably has to do with different parts of the computer using different independent clocks. (CPU and sound card, specifically) That guarantees a certain amount of de-sync, even if it's small, but it adds up to cause a buffer of *any* size to eventually fill up or run out. If the response to that is to simply expand the buffer, instead of fixing up the timestamps themselves, then it's doomed to continue getting further and further behind.

 

[strugglingmom]

It was opening in Microsoft so I did open it in VLC and no difference. However, since I already burned some on a disc and it was delayed there it made sense that it was in the capture and not the media player. I opened the task manager while I was recording. Were you looking for the CPU's?

 

[AaronD]

I opened the task manager while I was recording. Were you looking for the CPU's?

I'm not on Windows to give you a screenshot, but yes, the CPU load in TM needs to stay less than 100%. 90% is okay, but if it ever hits 100%, even if some unrelated thing caused it, that can cause problems in the recording.
(the "unrelated" bit causes a lot of people to recommend lower maximums, just in case, but if you can guarantee that nothing else is going to come up, you can go higher)

A better indication would be the individual load for each CPU core. They'll dance around a bit, sharing the total load back and forth, but they should all be similar on average, with none of them pegged.

---

Also, I don't think you've said (if you did, I missed it), but if you're on a laptop, those often have a special pitfall. They have good specs on paper, but not so good cooling. Good cooling systems are big and heavy, so a machine designed to be portable will probably not have much of one. It'll load something quickly, and then sit and do nothing while the user looks at it and it cools off, but if you use it for a continuous workload like recording video, it'll heat up and slow way down to limit the amount of heat it produces. That slowdown, of course, kills the recording or live stream. Not immediately, because it hasn't heated up yet, but it does get there.

If you're on a desktop tower, or a "Mobile Workstation" class of laptop that does have an adequate cooling system for continuous use (thick, heavy brick of a machine, even today), then you probably don't have to worry about this.

 

[strugglingmom]

I'm not on Windows to give you a screenshot, but yes, the CPU load in TM needs to stay less than 100%. 90% is okay, but if it ever hits 100%, even if some unrelated thing caused it, that can cause problems in the recording.
(the "unrelated" bit causes a lot of people to recommend lower maximums, just in case, but if you can guarantee that nothing else is going to come up, you can go higher)

A better indication would be the individual load for each CPU core. They'll dance around a bit, sharing the total load back and forth, but they should all be similar on average, with none of them pegged.

The numbers did dance around. From what I could tell they never got close to 100. Here is a sample pic to make sure I understand what you are talking about.

 

[AaronD]

The numbers did dance around. From what I could tell they never got close to 100. Here is a sample pic to make sure I understand what you are talking about.
View attachment 110976

Good start. 29% total at that moment, and then itemized for each app.

If I remember correctly, I think the Performance tab has the per-core measurement.

 

[strugglingmom]

Good start. 29% total at that moment, and then itemized for each app.

If I remember correctly, I think the Performance tab has the per-core measurement.

I didn't watch it the whole time but every couple of minutes I looked at it...it didn't get close to 100

 

[AaronD]

I didn't watch it the whole time but every couple of minutes I looked at it...it didn't get close to 100

Were you recording during that time? That'll make a HUGE difference! And it's not until well into the recording (after the possibility of thermal throttling - see my edited post above your screenshot...forum timing...) that the reading really becomes significant.

 

[strugglingmom]

yes I was recording and looked at it at various times. I can try again and watch more close. Is there even a fix if it does?

 

[AaronD]

yes I was recording and looked at it at various times. I can try again and watch more close. Is there even a fix if it does?

If all of your individual cores are well below redline, and it's not a laptop, then I don't think it's a system load issue. If it is, then about the only thing you can do is buy or borrow a better machine. No software or settings can fix that.

Another thing I'm curious about is your encoder settings. That would be in OBS -> Settings -> Output. Specifically, whether you're using the x264 encoder (huge CPU load, but common to every system) or something else. So far, it sounds like you'd have to be using a hardware encoder, as you should if you have one, but it's good to be sure.

 

[strugglingmom]

yes, x264

Thank you all so much. I've learned a ton even though we cant solve it.

 

[AaronD]

yes, x264

That...doesn't quite make sense, though it could be because I'm calibrated for bigger frames. Normally, as in with 1920x1080 or bigger, you'd need a monster CPU to not bog down with x264. Pegged at 100%, right from the start. But you're far from pegged. Maybe with your smaller size (640x480), it works?

Thank you all so much. I've learned a ton even though we cant solve it.

I don't think we've exhausted everything yet. :-)

Another possibility is a weird buffering problem, like I described earlier. Essentially, different parts of the overall machine (that you made by plugging things together) use different clocks that don't line up with each other, and that mismatch combined with incorrect software handling of it, causes gradual de-sync.

No good way to determine which combinations will have that problem and which ones won't, except to just try it and see what it does. It could very well be that a random different capture device works perfectly, or a random different computer, or both.

It's also perfectly okay to ignore the audio part of your capture device, and add a separate sound card to do that job. Lots of cheap captures don't have working audio anyway, and so you'd end up the same as all of those rigs.

And...actually *all* of my rigs presently use something outside of OBS for all of their audio processing anyway, and I intentionally mute all of the video inputs. Everything that I want to hear connects directly to that external thing, which does *all* the work and then feeds OBS as its only (allowed) audio source at all and passed through completely unchanged. That's overkill for just your one camera and nothing else, but it *is* a valid way to do it.

 

[AaronD]

One more thing to clarify:
Does your de-sync increase gradually throughout the recording? Or is it off by the same amount throughout?

If it's off the by same amount throughout, then there's a setting for that! Edit -> Advanced Audio Properties -> Sync Offset
Positive numbers make the audio come later, negative numbers make it come earlier...to a point.

The better way to make the audio come earlier, again as a constant thing throughout, is to delay to the picture. Right-click the source -> Filters -> Audio/Video Filters -> Video Delay (Async)

If it's not constant, but gradually gets more and more out of sync, then none of that will work. It'll offset the problem, but not actually solve it. In this case, you can go ahead and record a file that has the problem, then load that file into a video editor that allows you to work with the picture and sound separately, and adjust the speed of one or the other so that it lines up throughout. (or close enough) Then export that as your final recording.
I like Shotcut because it's free, runs on everything, does a lot, and it's easy enough to start with and grow into, but anything that can separate the soundtrack and adjust the speed independently will do.

Shotcut - Home

Shotcut is a free, open source, cross-platform video editor for Windows, Mac and Linux

shotcut.org

If you go this route, you'll want to set OBS to produce an exceptionally high-quality file (*), that will take a lot of space on your hard drive (and less work for your CPU to make), and let the *editor* do the compression into something more reasonable. Then delete the intermediate file.

(*) Not necessarily high dimensions - keep the 640x480 - but it's using a lot of information to describe everything in detail, instead of only what you're likely to notice at a casual glance. Several rounds of throwing everything away that you probably won't notice, is called "generational loss", as what the next stage has to regenerate becomes more detail to be preserved at the expense of some more original, and you DO notice that!

 

[strugglingmom]

One more thing to clarify:
Does your de-sync increase gradually throughout the recording? Or is it off by the same amount throughout?

If it's off the by same amount throughout, then there's a setting for that! Edit -> Advanced Audio Properties -> Sync Offset
Positive numbers make the audio come later, negative numbers make it come earlier...to a point.

The better way to make the audio come earlier, again as a constant thing throughout, is to delay to the picture. Right-click the source -> Filters -> Audio/Video Filters -> Video Delay (Async)

If it's not constant, but gradually gets more and more out of sync, then none of that will work. It'll offset the problem, but not actually solve it. In this case, you can go ahead and record a file that has the problem, then load that file into a video editor that allows you to work with the picture and sound separately, and adjust the speed of one or the other so that it lines up throughout. (or close enough) Then export that as your final recording.
I like Shotcut because it's free, runs on everything, does a lot, and it's easy enough to start with and grow into, but anything that can separate the soundtrack and adjust the speed independently will do.

Shotcut - Home

Shotcut is a free, open source, cross-platform video editor for Windows, Mac and Linux

shotcut.org

If you go this route, you'll want to set OBS to produce an exceptionally high-quality file (*), that will take a lot of space on your hard drive (and less work for your CPU to make), and let the *editor* do the compression into something more reasonable. Then delete the intermediate file.

(*) Not necessarily high dimensions - keep the 640x480 - but it's using a lot of information to describe everything in detail, instead of only what you're likely to notice at a casual glance. Several rounds of throwing everything away that you probably won't notice, is called "generational loss", as what the next stage has to regenerate becomes more detail to be preserved at the expense of some more original, and you DO notice that!

The capture always starts out with audio and picture in sync. It's about the 10-15 min. mark it goes out of sync so I wouldn't think the sync offset would work for that....would it? I can try it and see. I thought about purchasing a capture card that comes with it's own software and support. I'm just learning all of this. I was really just wanting to preserve my kids memories and probably won't use it again for anything I can think of. All the how to videos made this look so easy and I was so happy when I got the capture to work until I watched the whole thing through. Very disappointing. I need something relatively easy to use.

 

[AaronD]

The capture always starts out with audio and picture in sync. It's about the 10-15 min. mark it goes out of sync so I wouldn't think the sync offset would work for that....would it?

No it wouldn't. There's a setting that would have the first 10-15 minutes wrong and then it'd become right at that point, but I don't think you want that either!

Also, the way you describe it sounds like an abrupt change? Not gradual? That could point to a different problem, though I'm not sure what.

All the how to videos made this look so easy...

It *is* that easy when you have the right gear. It's just next to impossible to tell which cheap ones won't have various "haphazard design and manufacturing" problems.

Lots of frustrated posts on these forums to that effect. For the ones looking to capture a modern game console, another PC, HD camera, or similar, I generally tell them to expect to spend about $100 per input on a name brand, and to only have one input per USB controller because of the amount of data that it takes for HD video. Not per port, but per controller: a lot of systems have only one or two controllers, and internal hubs to connect them to all the ports.

You're not HD, and you're not trying to use multiples, so you're not going to have *those* problems, but there's still a possibility that you ended up with cheap junk that doesn't actually work. Yes, that's frustrating. I have a pile myself that I accumulated before I figured that out.

 

[AaronD]

I thought about purchasing a capture card that comes with it's own software and support. I'm just learning all of this. I was really just wanting to preserve my kids memories and probably won't use it again for anything I can think of.

For just a one-time preservation of everything, either that or a professional service might be the way to go. I normally don't say that because most people seem to want to use OBS for the foreseeable future and so we kinda need to make it work, but if you're not going to, then there's no reason to stick with it.

Be aware though, that the cheap versions of those package deals (capture card + software) have the same problems of haphazard design and manufacturing, and so you really haven't gained anything by doing that, unless you just happen to get the ONE serial number that works by accident.

 

[strugglingmom]

Well that doesn't sound promising for me to try another capture card. I was hoping maybe that was the problem. I would love for OBS to work but I'm not sure if there is anything more we can try. I have so many vhs tapes to digitize a professional transfer service isn't an option.
Thank you again. You all have been wonderful

 

[AaronD]

Well, it might be worth spending a bit on a *good* Composite video capture card. Same as usual: name brand, and expect to pay a lot more than you would for the cheap stuff. But because it's a name brand that actually cares about customer loyalty, they also have some accountability to those customers and so *their* stuff does work.

 

[Suslik V]

Let's back to track.
@koala already said that there were no errors in the log, so no sense to look at performance.

Do you remember the audio in device named "Microphone (USB2.0 MIC)" that OBS tried to use as default device? This is sound form the "AV TO USB2.0" camera. Yeah, this cheap capture card is emulation of USB camera (named "AV TO USB2.0") with the mic (named "USB2.0 MIC"). The first OBS log had info that sampling rate for this mic in "shared mode" was set at 96000Hz (likely mono). I thought that it worth to try to set it to 44100Hz as everything else in your PC and then cross your fingers...

Spoiler: Tech details

I wasn't familiar with this capture device. So, I looked online. There are few videos from the manufacturer how to use this capture device (or likely similar device with the vid_534d&pid_0021), I found them only on the market page of the product. This is "MS210x Video Grabber [EasierCAP]" or similar MacroSilicon family devices. This devices always outputs progressive frames (deinterlacing not needed). Max is 720x480@30fps or 720x576@25fps with MJPEG format. Audio can be mono.

It can be a bug in OBS that it shows only 44100Hz for the Video Capture Device source in the log. Worth a try other util, not OBS, jut in case.