Best settings for digital8 tape

[Parky]

Hi, could anyone suggest the best settings for recording Digital8 Hi8 tapes? These were recorded on a Sony Digital 8 DCR-TRV320E. I am transferring using a video grabber with RCA phono connection. The output is 5:4 ratio.
I struggled to get it going, but it is now working. I just want to check that i am getting the best possible quality.
Thank you

 

[Parky]

Also wondering about output. The videos I have captured are in .mkv format. Is it better to change to MP4? If so, should I change the output setting, or capture in .mkv and remux after capture?

 

[AaronD]

Hi, could anyone suggest the best settings for recording Digital8 Hi8 tapes? These were recorded on a Sony Digital 8 DCR-TRV320E. I am transferring using a video grabber with RCA phono connection. The output is 5:4 ratio.
I struggled to get it going, but it is now working. I just want to check that i am getting the best possible quality.
Thank you

The fewer things you can do to it, the better it usually is. Unless you really know what you're doing, always record as raw as you can get. No scaling, no framerate conversion, etc., not even by accident.

You can always post-process the file while keeping the original, throw that processing away, and try again. But if you record post-processing, you're stuck with whatever that processing was.

Also wondering about output. The videos I have captured are in .mkv format. Is it better to change to MP4? If so, should I change the output setting, or capture in .mkv and remux after capture?

Keep MKV. MP4 is designed for cheap and easy playback, and that ends up losing the entire file if something goes wrong during recording. MKV keeps everything up to the crash point.

So always record to MKV, and remux to MP4 afterwards, if you even need to. Almost everything that's worth using will take MKV directly.

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

What Aaron said
And see link in my .sig on posting your OBS Studio log from a Recording session so we can comment on your OBS Studio settings

And, I'd think you'd be better off using something other than RCA (analog) jacks. Is S-Video an option? basically beware of having recorded at one resolution, and losing that using the RCA output option [may not be an issue.. or might be... depends]

And real-time video encoding is computationally demanding. so older computers will REALLY struggle at times, unless one really know what one is doing (at both Operating System level and OBS Studio)

 

[AaronD]

And, I'd think you'd be better off using something other than RCA (analog) jacks. Is S-Video an option? basically beware of having recorded at one resolution, and losing that using the RCA output option [may not be an issue.. or might be... depends]

S-video is analog too, and technically the same specs as both Composite and Component. So you're not gaining any numbers there.

However, while Composite puts everything on the same wire, with direct sync and brightness signals and two color channels quadrature-amplitude-modulated on top of that, both Component and S-video separate those things out. Component separates the colors while keeping the syncs shared. S-video separates both the colors *and* the syncs.

So S-video (1 mini-DIN connector) is probably the best quality in terms of signal crosstalk, followed closely by Component (3 RCA's, all for silent video), followed distantly by Composite (1 RCA).

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Some S-Video is 480i, but there are some options/devices capable of higher resolution output (seeing reference to 525, 576, and 625). I recall my Sony camcorder recording at higher than 480i and only being able to access that using S-Video... ymmv depending on equipment recorded on, and output device, etc.

 

[Parky]

Some S-Video is 480i, but there are some options/devices capable of higher resolution output (seeing reference to 525, 576, and 625). I recall my Sony camcorder recording at higher than 480i and only being able to access that using S-Video... ymmv depending on equipment recorded on, and output device, etc.

Thank you for your replies. I tried using S-video, and it is tons better than RCA in terms of picture, especially smooth panning. However, I have no sound. Can you suggest which settings might be wrong? All the intsructions for the USB grabber seem to relate to using RCA. I think I have the right video settings now. Frame rate 29.97, resolution 600 x 480 (the picture is 5:4)

 

[Parky]

Thank you for your replies. I tried using S-video, and it is tons better than RCA in terms of picture, especially smooth panning. However, I have no sound. Can you suggest which settings might be wrong? All the intsructions for the USB grabber seem to relate to using RCA. I think I have the right video settings now. Frame rate 29.97, resolution 600 x 480 (the picture is 5:4)

OK, so I was being silly, S-video doesn't have any sound. I have plugged the 2 audio cables back in.
However, it seems like I was being overoptimistic about the smoothness of the video. Scenes which pan from side to side, play perfectly smoothly if played directly from the tape in the video camera into the television, but once downloaded, they are jerky to the point of being difficult to watch. What can I do about this?

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

2 thoughts
1. the video capture device could be causing problems (common with cheap, no-name, devices)
hard to test without alternative source to work with

best to start with #2, and make sure computer and/or its settings aren't the problem, then move onto troubleshooting #1 above
2. your computer could not be up to the task of real-time video encoding with your settings, and whatever else the PC is doing. sorry... it depends. if older/lower-end computer, then massive optimization may be required... and even then still not work. Brand new expensive/powerful business class workstation could still be brought to its knees with wrong settings.

 

[Parky]

2 thoughts
1. the video capture device could be causing problems (common with cheap, no-name, devices)
hard to test without alternative source to work with

best to start with #2, and make sure computer and/or its settings aren't the problem, then move onto troubleshooting #1 above
2. your computer could not be up to the task of real-time video encoding with your settings, and whatever else the PC is doing. sorry... it depends. if older/lower-end computer, then massive optimization may be required... and even then still not work. Brand new expensive/powerful business class workstation could still be brought to its knees with wrong settings.

Thank you
1. Yes, I am using a fairly cheap, unnamed capture device. Can you recommend a good brand?

2. I am using a laptop, but a recent (2023) Samsung. Here are the specs
Device name BOOK-G10MN9QD14
Processor 13th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-1340P 1.90 GHz
Installed RAM 8.00 GB (7.70 GB usable)
Device ID 2953A0F7-1B27-4B02-B24D-84CC21379681
Product ID 00342-21101-23540-AAOEM
System type 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
Pen and touch Pen and touch support with 10 touch points

I have an ancient PC that is not much god for anything. I have not replaced it to date, as till now, the laptop has been adequate for my needs.

Yes, I am using a laptop, but the reason I still have these tapes from 2003 is because I had a similar problem with jerky panning when I was processing the videos years ago. Then I had a good PC and was capturing with a firewire. Earliest captures were fine, then something changed. I couldn't resolve it and I bought a new video camera. It is not the tapes as the they play smoothly direct from video camera to television.

Today I have tried clearing almost everything from startup and closing everything else while capturing. I reduced frame rate to 25. I also set the OBS graphics specification to High Performance. All with no effect. I tried attaching an example, but even a 5 second video is too large to attach. Here is the log file: https://obsproject.com/logs/ZbNABtTvkf5BTU5G

Last thing - sorry to be so long - you mention computer settings could be causing a problem - which ones?

Thanks for your help!

 

[koala]

 [DShow Device: 'Video Capture Device'] settings updated:
13:47:56.717:     video device: USB Video
13:47:56.717:     video path: \\?\usb#vid_534d&pid_0021&mi_00#6&20689590&0&0000#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\global
13:47:56.717:     resolution: 720x576
13:47:56.717:     flip: 0
13:47:56.717:     fps: 25.00 (interval: 400000)

This is what your capture card produces. 720x576 is a regular output resolution for analog PAL video, however this will not produce quadratic pixels. Pixels are slightly taller than wide, so they're rectangles instead of squares. This is why you assume your video has aspect ratio 5:4. The pixel aspect ratio is 5:4, but the video as it was recorded and meant to be viewed has aspect ratio 4:3. If you watch this on an analog TV with a picture tube and measure the tube, you will get an aspect ratio 4:3. The TV widens the image it gets, stretching the video to 4:3 to do this.

Best practice today is quadratic pixels, an this is also what OBS will write as pixel aspect ratio into the video. To create quadratic pixels from the rectangles, you need to simulate what the TV does: you need to widen the pixels. To keep best quality, you should use 720x576 as canvas resolution in OBS, the same resolution that comes from the capture device. And with the output resolution perform the widening: use 768x576 as output resolution. This is aspect ratio 4:3. The pixels are widened slightly and the vertical resolution is kept the same, so no image detail is lost.

About your bad panning experience: Try to set the capture device to 50 fps. According to the log you set it to 25 fps, which is half the fps you get from the tape. You're throwing away half of all the images. So open the properties of the capture device in OBS and set fps to 50. Also make sure you use 50 fps in Settings > Video. You set some odd NTSC fps there, which is completely wrong if you're handling PAL input.

Keep in mind: PAL is 720x576 → 768x576 with 50 Hz, and NTSC is 720x480 → 720x540 with 59.94 Hz (or alternative 720x480 → 640x480). Whatever (PAL, NTSC) your video is, set the corresponding settings in OBS and in the capture device source properties. Either all the PAL settings or all the NTSC settings. But not a mix.

Finally, analog video is interlaced and digital video should be progressive, so you should use deinterlacing. OBS has terrific deinterlacing, but slightly difficult to understand. The best interlacer for original analog video is Yadif 2x. Deinterlacing halves the fps by combining 2 half frames. So there is Yadif 2x as 2x variant that uses both frame halves and interpolate missing information. This will keep the original fps and ensure really fluid motion.
So right-click your video capture device source > Deinterlacing > Yadif 2x.
If you choose any non 2x deinterlace variant, you need to set half of the frame rate in Settings > Video than in the video capture device source properties. But this will result in less video information than you can have. So use any of the 2x interlacer and use the same fps in settings > video as you have in the properties of your capture device.

 

[Parky]

Thank you for your reply. There's a lot of technical stuff there, and I have tried to understand and implement all of it but it hasn't resolved the issue.

On ratio. 5:4 is the actual picture ratio as displayed on the VCR display. I looked up the frame rate and resolution of the camera and tapes, but didn't realise I was looking at the NTSC version. (It's a long time since these tapes were recorded and I had forogtten all that stuff!) That's why, at one point I was using fps 29.97. I am in Europe, so it is a PAL version 720x576 and fps is 25. I tried the resolutions you suggested, including changing the output to 768x576. This made it much worse, I think OBS must automatically make the adjustment for pixel shape. 720x576 for input and output was as good as before, but still with the jerking panning.

Increasing the framerate to 50 fps made no difference. All the information I have looked at is quite clear, that the fps of both tape and camera are 25, so I don't understand how I am losing anything by setting that rate.

I tried de-interlacing, but that just lost picture quality. I tried all the x2 deinterlacers, but most made the picture and the jerking worse. The one setting that may be marginally better is 720x256 fps 25 de-interlacer Yadif 2x. The problem is, unfortunately, not solved.

 

[Suslik V]

If nothing helps, alternative is to try other software and other capture device:

Hi8 Tape to Laptop out of sync

Let's back to track. @koala already said that there were no errors in the log, so no sense to look at performance. Do you remember the audio in device named "Microphone (USB2.0 MIC)" that OBS tried to use as default device? This is sound form the "AV TO USB2.0" camera. Yeah, this cheap capture...

obsproject.com

 

[koala]

Aspect ratio with analog tape is really difficult and there is no straightforward answer.
Good discussions about this:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/premiere-pro-discussions/pal-pixel-aspect-ratio-issue/td-p/13042553

PAL aspect ratio: 720 x 576 is not 4:3 - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

About fps and deinterlacing: What happens if your do it the other way round from what I said? Keep your capture device at 25 fps and set OBS to 50 fps. And use Yadif2x deinterlacing. Makes sense for the deinterlacer separate the 2 half frames from the capture device, interpolate the missing lines, then output at double fps (=50). May be I originally misunderstood how the capture device delivers the 2 half frames from the PAL recording.

 

[Parky]

I already tried setting OBS at 50fps and using Yadif2x deinterlacing. The result was not good.
If I want to get a better capture device, where do I start.? I don't know any brands that should be good. When I search, nothing stands out. Can you point me in the right direction?

 

[Parky]

If nothing helps, alternative is to try other software and other capture device:

Hi8 Tape to Laptop out of sync

Let's back to track. @koala already said that there were no errors in the log, so no sense to look at performance. Do you remember the audio in device named "Microphone (USB2.0 MIC)" that OBS tried to use as default device? This is sound form the "AV TO USB2.0" camera. Yeah, this cheap capture...

obsproject.com

I tried running Shotcut. I got as far as step 11, where the instructions say:
11. From export dialog window select encoding preset (MPEG-2, it is old but fast CPU based encoder) and click Capture File button. Shotcut will prompt to you to set the file name and folder where to save your media. And recording of the file starts. The button's name changes to "Stop Capture"

When I clicked on Export/Video, I didn't get the export dialogue window, just the prompt to set file name and folder, so I didn't get the Start/stop Capture" button. Something did record, but when I tried to play it, it was blank.

Shotcut is now version 25.01.25

 

[Parky]

I have now found how to record and stop record, but all files are blank. Now running through all the presets to see if I can find something that works.

 

[Parky]

I am giving up on Shotcut. I eventually got a recording of sorts, but , as a contributor on their forum said, capture is not the main purpose of Shotcut and I could be ages trying to work out decent settings without solving my problem.

So, I am back to trying to sort this out in OBS. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good quality capture device, in case that solves it?

 

[Lawrence_SoCal]

Today I have tried clearing almost everything from startup and closing everything else while capturing.

There are some Operating System Startup items that should remain on {audio drivers, touchpad interface, and other hardware drives, plus MS Security notifications... I disable the rest... but ... depends}
Otherwise... exactly as you should do...

I reduced frame rate to 25. I also set the OBS graphics specification to High Performance. All with no effect. I tried attaching an example, but even a 5 second video is too large to attach. Here is the log file: https://obsproject.com/logs/ZbNABtTvkf5BTU5G

Last thing - sorry to be so long - you mention computer settings could be causing a problem - which ones?

So Capture device is one thing to work on, the other is the PC itself. This reply regarding PC

8GB RAM is on the low side for modern computing (ok for simple tasks, but NOT real-time video encoding... generally... it depends)
13:47:54.047: Physical Memory: 7882MB Total, 752MB Free
And this log won't indicate... but hopefully your laptop has a NVME SSD, not a hard disk drive (magnetic / HDD)? IF a HDD, not a SSD, then upgrading would also be a high priority for me...
.. Because I know what I'm doing, upgrading RAM and disk storage I do on almost all systems I have (over-priced OEM options is why I tend to avoid ordering upgraded models ... also, warranty implications, but I know how to deal with those and haven't had a problem over many decades ... ymmv)

Presuming no desire to get yet another computer... IF solutions found for the other items, I suspect upgrading RAM will make a material difference [no way based on this thread to to know if, or by how much]. I'd also be inclined to test performance of SSD and make sure adequate [vague.. I know.. but depends on requirements of the Recording process, plus whatever else going on at Operating System level...

13:47:56.717: [DShow Device: 'Video Capture Device'] settings updated:
13:47:56.717: video device: USB Video
13:47:56.717: resolution: 720x576

I suspect that you'll want your Base Canvas and Output resolution to be as @koala recommended

Keep in mind: PAL is 720x576 → 768x576 with 50 Hz, and NTSC is 720x480 → 720x540 with 59.94 Hz (or alternative 720x480 → 640x480). Whatever (PAL, NTSC) your video is, set the corresponding settings in OBS and in the capture device source properties. Either all the PAL settings or all the NTSC settings. But not a mix.

note the section about being aware of whatever the source video format and resolution is. Hopefully they are all the same... they might not be... I know my old Sony camcorder allowed settings change on Recording...

Also, you might want to check which USB port you are using. For testing, I'd avoid using a USB hub... Also, NOT all laptop USB ports are the same, and their data path to CPU may vary (not always easy to discern). For testing I'd be inclined to remove all USB devices except the capture (USB) 'card'/device.

As for capture device... elsewhere Aaron recommended avoiding doing the online low-cost filter approach. spot on advice
His comment was to look for an local (American in that thread) company with local support... well-known Names like El Gato, IO Data, StarTech and others... however, I have no idea what is good or bad amongst those [ie discerning which is quality, with good support, vs over-priecd and lots of marketing?] ... hence my not commenting further

Looks like threads on Reddit an elsewhere go into details.... however, many of them will depend on exact details of your source material and playback device. You mentioned the Sony Digital 8 DCR-TRV320E... is playback also from that device?​

 

[Parky]

I gave up on Shotcut, but am now using a really old programme, VirtualDub, and have found a setting that gives me smooth panning and a decent picture. It records in .AVI, maybe that's the difference, but my video editor is OK with that.
I am really appreciative of all your your advice, but I think I have found my solution elsewhere.