Background hiss even without microphone plugged in when just recording desktop

JustLinkStudios

New Member
Even when just recording the desk top, theres this obnoxious hiss in the background. It's there with the mic plugged in and without. Ive tried so many damn things from google searching for an entire day with no conclusive results regarding a fix. It obviously makes recording any voice work no use as it's there when there's any silence and can even be heard whilst speaking. Really need some of you guys' advice on what the possible cause could be. Ive attached a link to show the Mic/Aux input bouncing away when nothings playing, it also has the sound.

 

AaronD

Active Member
Sounds like analog electronic noise from a cheap mic preamp. You can't get rid of it, except to use a different device.

The Noise Suppression filter is designed for exactly this type of noise, when you make it the first thing in the chain, but it also affects legitimate audio as well. You might try it and see what you think, but the better solution would be to use a different device.

What it is currently?
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
Sounds like analog electronic noise from a cheap mic preamp. You can't get rid of it, except to use a different device.

The Noise Suppression filter is designed for exactly this type of noise, when you make it the first thing in the chain, but it also affects legitimate audio as well. You might try it and see what you think, but the better solution would be to use a different device.

What it is currently?

It’s a brand new shotgun mic to replace my old cheap condenser mic. It’s going straight into my Xonar D2X sound card. I’ve tried noise gate and suppression but the hiss is so audible when I speak it sounds bad. I’ve also tried it directly into my mobo. But like I say, this isn’t an issue with just the mic. The hissing is also there even when the mic isn’t plugged in. I can have no other programs open, no devices plugged in, hit record, play back the video and the hiss is still there.
 

AaronD

Active Member
It’s going straight into my Xonar D2X sound card.
Googled that. Yep! Just as I suspected, it's still an internal card. ANYTHING inside the case is smothered with so much noise that you really can't expect much better than a 1980's cassette tape.

It claims 118dB Signal/Noise, but I'm pretty sure that's for the converter chip itself and just copy/pasted into the card spec. Your measurement of about 40dB or so is more in line with what I would expect for an analog front end (resistors, capacitors, opamps, power supply fitering, etc.) that is designed with practicality in mind for the environment that it's going to live in.

You need an *external* sound card. Not a cheap one that has the same stuff in it that would normally go on a motherboard or a card like yours, but one that is actually designed *well* for that specific purpose. Look at USB interfaces for the pro market, with XLR inputs and a physical knob to adjust the preamp for each one. No PC controls. And get an XLR mic to plug into it if it's not already.
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
Googled that. Yep! Just as I suspected, it's still an internal card. ANYTHING inside the case is smothered with so much noise that you really can't expect much better than a 1980's cassette tape.

It claims 118dB Signal/Noise, but I'm pretty sure that's for the converter chip itself and just copy/pasted into the card spec. Your measurement of about 40dB or so is more in line with what I would expect for an analog front end (resistors, capacitors, opamps, power supply fitering, etc.) that is designed with practicality in mind for the environment that it's going to live in.

You need an *external* sound card. Not a cheap one that has the same stuff in it that would normally go on a motherboard or a card like yours, but one that is actually designed *well* for that specific purpose. Look at USB interfaces for the pro market, with XLR inputs and a physical knob to adjust the preamp for each one. No PC controls. And get an XLR mic to plug into it if it's not already.
So do most vocal recordists use an external? My new mic uses a 3.5mm xlr cable. Are you saying though that even without a mic plugged in my card is what’s causing the noise? I’m almost positive that I’ve never had that noise there before, after all this messing on I’ve also noticed the same quiet hiss coming from my surround speakers, only when my ear is right next to them but it’s there. Which is annoying even more, nothings changed regarding my hardware or software.
 

AaronD

Active Member
So do most vocal recordists use an external?
I'd be surprised if one didn't.

My new mic uses a 3.5mm xlr cable.
So the mic itself is probably okay. Get an external XLR interface, and an XLR -> XLR cord.

Get rid of the 3.5mm adapter, or use its ends and the wire as 3 distinct parts to make your own custom thing. There's really no good way to wire a passive XLR -> 3.5mm adapter. The electrical standards are just too different.

Are you saying though that even without a mic plugged in my card is what’s causing the noise? I’m almost positive that I’ve never had that noise there before, after all this messing on I’ve also noticed the same quiet hiss coming from my surround speakers, only when my ear is right next to them but it’s there. Which is annoying even more, nothings changed regarding my hardware or software.
If it's anything other than a hiss (pure white noise), then you're listening to some sort of interference. Depending on what the interference is, where it comes from, and how it's picked up, you might be able to reduce or eliminate it. That's a big part of what XLR is for, provided that it stays that way for the entire run.
(Live sound venues often run XLR mics for several tens or hundreds of feet before they hit the preamps in the mixing console, and they still don't pick up the noisy lighting or motor circuits.)

If it is just a hiss, then it's the electronics themselves that are responsible for that signal. Can't do anything about that, except to use different electronics.

It could be that you never noticed until you really started listening, and now that you know, it bugs you. The gear didn't change; you simply became aware of how low-performance it really is despite the claims. :-/

It's also remotely possible that you might have zapped it, so that it barely works, but it's pretty unlikely to leave it just on the edge of working like that. Even if it is though, the solution is still to replace it, and so you might as well replace it with something good.
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
I'd be surprised if one didn't.


So the mic itself is probably okay. Get an external XLR interface, and an XLR -> XLR cord.

Get rid of the 3.5mm adapter, or use its ends and the wire as 3 distinct parts to make your own custom thing. There's really no good way to wire a passive XLR -> 3.5mm adapter. The electrical standards are just too different.


If it's anything other than a hiss (pure white noise), then you're listening to some sort of interference. Depending on what the interference is, where it comes from, and how it's picked up, you might be able to reduce or eliminate it. That's a big part of what XLR is for, provided that it stays that way for the entire run.
(Live sound venues often run XLR mics for several tens or hundreds of feet before they hit the preamps in the mixing console, and they still don't pick up the noisy lighting or motor circuits.)

If it is just a hiss, then it's the electronics themselves that are responsible for that signal. Can't do anything about that, except to use different electronics.

It could be that you never noticed until you really started listening, and now that you know, it bugs you. The gear didn't change; you simply became aware of how low-performance it really is despite the claims. :-/

It's also remotely possible that you might have zapped it, so that it barely works, but it's pretty unlikely to leave it just on the edge of working like that. Even if it is though, the solution is still to replace it, and so you might as well replace it with something good.
Been back at it again today. Tried every variation of disabling other inputs as I tried the other. Still there. And yeah the hiss is a consistent steady white noise, like static on an old tv. Pretty confident on the hiss through my speakers never being there. I’ve had the same sound card for some 10 years, always used to have my volume high during games or films and would have silence periodically, never any hiss. I’ve found some stuff regarding my ground looping, but I can’t imagine my pc is suddenly not correctly grounded. I also have no idea how I’d even solve that issue apart from dismantling my machine and reassembling to check connections.

By the sounds of it I need to try an external connection like you say. So more money I have to spend which is fun. It better solve the damn problem or I’ll go mental, at my wits end mate.
 

AaronD

Active Member
...always used to have my volume high during games or films and would have silence periodically, never any hiss.
That depends on where the volume control is, compared to where the hiss is coming from. If the hiss is after the volume control, then turning it up won't increase the hiss, but it *will* drown it out more.

If you're talking about a software volume control, then I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one active analog stage (line/headphone driver) after it, even if that software volume control goes directly to the converter chip itself and adjusts the volume there. And that final analog stage would be exactly where I'd expect poor performance, if it's designed to sit in a noisy computer box anyway.

So you still haven't said anything yet to surprise me or make me doubt your reports.

I’ve found some stuff regarding my ground looping, but I can’t imagine my pc is suddenly not correctly grounded. I also have no idea how I’d even solve that issue apart from dismantling my machine and reassembling to check connections.
Ground loops are caused by *too much* ground. Two bits of gear are plugged into different grounded outlets, and the signal cord between them also uses that same ground as a reference for the signal. (signals are not absolute, but a *difference* between the signal wire and some reference; if the reference wiggles, then it can't be distinguished from the signal wiggling) From one outlet, to the electrical panel, to the other outlet, and through the signal cord, completes the loop.

The solution is to isolate the signal cord somehow. NEVER break a safety ground! (the 3rd pin of a power cord)

Ground loop isolation is one of the 3 functions of a professional "DI box", which is often used for guitars, keyboards, and similar things:
  • Break a ground loop safely
  • Allow something that is barely capable of providing a signal at all (high impedance, unbalanced) to drive a 100-foot or so cable run to a sound board at the other end of the room, without killing the sound or picking up noise over that distance (low impedance, balanced)
  • Adapt the plugs from 1/4" TS out of that gear, to XLR to feed that long cable run
You can also get a dedicated isolator for pretty much any type of signal you want, that usually works in a similar way. You get what you pay for though: the expensive ones sound like straight wires, and the cheaper ones sound like classic rock-and-roll distortion, because transformer saturation is a big part of that sound.
 

OneMeterPeter

New Member
I've had a similar issue but it wasn't a hiss, it was more of a buzz
I found out it was some cheap LED lights that were causing it. My audio wires were passing behind my desk and touching the LED lights there, so when the lights were on, the buzz was there. I would say try turning off other electronic devices in the area, like fans, lights, etc. and see if that resolves it. There little magnetic sort of adapters you can buy to prevent that noise and you plug it in between the analog 3.5mm jacks and it can help but usually a bit of noise still stays behind.

But then again, this might not be your issue. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in case it helps.
 

AaronD

Active Member
I've had a similar issue but it wasn't a hiss, it was more of a buzz
I found out it was some cheap LED lights that were causing it. My audio wires were passing behind my desk and touching the LED lights there, so when the lights were on, the buzz was there. I would say try turning off other electronic devices in the area, like fans, lights, etc. and see if that resolves it. There little magnetic sort of adapters you can buy to prevent that noise and you plug it in between the analog 3.5mm jacks and it can help but usually a bit of noise still stays behind.

But then again, this might not be your issue. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in case it helps.
A buzz is a different problem. That comes from the AC power line. Or more accurately, the twice-per-cycle current spikes that happen when a DC device is cheaply powered from AC, because that's how a rectifier-capacitor works. It draws nothing until the incoming AC voltage is higher than the capacitor voltage, and then it draws all of its current at that moment to recharge the capacitor. Then it draws nothing again for the next half-cycle of AC.

This is true for both the old classic "linear" power supplies (mains AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> capacitor -> DC load) and the cheaper switching power supplies (mains AC -> rectifier -> capacitor -> high-voltage DC -> isolated DC-DC converter -> load).

A more expensive power-factor-corrected (PFC) switching power supply removes the high-voltage capacitor and has two stages of DC-DC conversion:
mains AC -> rectifier -> DC-DC boost -> super-high-voltage DC, still variable, and capacitor -> isolated DC-DC buck -> load
As you can see, the first DC-DC converter boosts to an even higher-voltage DC than what the mains AC can provide, with some extra logic to try to make its input current follow the input voltage, and then the second reduces that (still variable) super-high-voltage DC to what the load actually wants.

Another source of a power-line buzz is triac-dimmed lighting. These are cheap, and appear everywhere from residential wall-mounted dimmer switches to multi-kW-per-channel theatrical rigs. The triac itself is just a switch, with surrounding circuitry to keep it off for the first part of each AC half-cycle and then turn on to finish the half cycle. The ratio of on to off (called the duty cycle) determines the brightness of an incandescent bulb, or the speed of a (small!) motor. (they're really not designed for motors, but sometimes they work anyway) The shock of current starting when the switch turns on, which happens twice per AC cycle, can also cause a buzz in other gear. Sometimes the bulb or motor itself will buzz, because some part of it is acting like a (crude) speaker, with the electrical power as its signal.



In either case - rectified AC -> DC, or triac dimming - the primary pickup in other gear is induced through an air gap. Inverse-square law, times the length of cable at each distance. So the way to reduce it is to keep them apart, and if they must cross, do it at a right angle.

Shielding helps too, so that both ends of the problem "connect" to the shield instead of directly to each other, and the shield itself is connected to ground so that it doesn't wiggle electrically. (if the shield is not grounded, then it does wiggle electrically, and so the system works as if the shield were not there at all)

And twisting the wires helps a lot for balanced signals, because it puts them in effectively the same place on average, and so they pick up that noise equally. Equal pickup in a balanced signal, drops out at the receiving end, because it only cares about the *difference* between the two wires.

XLR runs, from stage to sound board in a pro rig, are shielded twisted pairs that carry balanced signals, so they use *all* of the tricks above to reduce or eliminate noise. That's how a raw, unamplified mic can go that far through an environment that also has high-power triac-dimmed lights and who knows what else, and still have a clean signal after the board's preamp.



That's probably WAY more than you wanted to know. :-) I just wanted to provide enough detail to show how different sources of noise have different sounds, so that you can rule out a lot of problems just by how they sound. More skilled ears can also diagnose radio and digital problems based on how the decoded audio sounds.

TL;DR:
  • A buzz is almost always related to an AC power line.
  • A hiss is almost always from the gear itself.
Completely different problems with completely different solutions.
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
I've had a similar issue but it wasn't a hiss, it was more of a buzz
I found out it was some cheap LED lights that were causing it. My audio wires were passing behind my desk and touching the LED lights there, so when the lights were on, the buzz was there. I would say try turning off other electronic devices in the area, like fans, lights, etc. and see if that resolves it. There little magnetic sort of adapters you can buy to prevent that noise and you plug it in between the analog 3.5mm jacks and it can help but usually a bit of noise still stays behind.

But then again, this might not be your issue. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents in case it helps.
Yeah I dont have any lights in my case mate. Or outside it for that matter, I just have LED fans which ive already turned off to see if they made any difference, they didnt.
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
A buzz is a different problem. That comes from the AC power line. Or more accurately, the twice-per-cycle current spikes that happen when a DC device is cheaply powered from AC, because that's how a rectifier-capacitor works. It draws nothing until the incoming AC voltage is higher than the capacitor voltage, and then it draws all of its current at that moment to recharge the capacitor. Then it draws nothing again for the next half-cycle of AC.

This is true for both the old classic "linear" power supplies (mains AC -> transformer -> rectifier -> capacitor -> DC load) and the cheaper switching power supplies (mains AC -> rectifier -> capacitor -> high-voltage DC -> isolated DC-DC converter -> load).

A more expensive power-factor-corrected (PFC) switching power supply removes the high-voltage capacitor and has two stages of DC-DC conversion:
mains AC -> rectifier -> DC-DC boost -> super-high-voltage DC, still variable, and capacitor -> isolated DC-DC buck -> load
As you can see, the first DC-DC converter boosts to an even higher-voltage DC than what the mains AC can provide, with some extra logic to try to make its input current follow the input voltage, and then the second reduces that (still variable) super-high-voltage DC to what the load actually wants.

Another source of a power-line buzz is triac-dimmed lighting. These are cheap, and appear everywhere from residential wall-mounted dimmer switches to multi-kW-per-channel theatrical rigs. The triac itself is just a switch, with surrounding circuitry to keep it off for the first part of each AC half-cycle and then turn on to finish the half cycle. The ratio of on to off (called the duty cycle) determines the brightness of an incandescent bulb, or the speed of a (small!) motor. (they're really not designed for motors, but sometimes they work anyway) The shock of current starting when the switch turns on, which happens twice per AC cycle, can also cause a buzz in other gear. Sometimes the bulb or motor itself will buzz, because some part of it is acting like a (crude) speaker, with the electrical power as its signal.



In either case - rectified AC -> DC, or triac dimming - the primary pickup in other gear is induced through an air gap. Inverse-square law, times the length of cable at each distance. So the way to reduce it is to keep them apart, and if they must cross, do it at a right angle.

Shielding helps too, so that both ends of the problem "connect" to the shield instead of directly to each other, and the shield itself is connected to ground so that it doesn't wiggle electrically. (if the shield is not grounded, then it does wiggle electrically, and so the system works as if the shield were not there at all)

And twisting the wires helps a lot for balanced signals, because it puts them in effectively the same place on average, and so they pick up that noise equally. Equal pickup in a balanced signal, drops out at the receiving end, because it only cares about the *difference* between the two wires.

XLR runs, from stage to sound board in a pro rig, are shielded twisted pairs that carry balanced signals, so they use *all* of the tricks above to reduce or eliminate noise. That's how a raw, unamplified mic can go that far through an environment that also has high-power triac-dimmed lights and who knows what else, and still have a clean signal after the board's preamp.



That's probably WAY more than you wanted to know. :-) I just wanted to provide enough detail to show how different sources of noise have different sounds, so that you can rule out a lot of problems just by how they sound. More skilled ears can also diagnose radio and digital problems based on how the decoded audio sounds.

TL;DR:
  • A buzz is almost always related to an AC power line.
  • A hiss is almost always from the gear itself.
Completely different problems with completely different solutions.
Damn man, that is a lot fo detail. Ive tried every variation of everything I could possibly find from multiple forums. The fact the Hiss is still there in the mixer even when the mic is discconected completely including the cable is perplexing. Even with mic inputs disabled its still there. Its got to be coming from my machine but where its coming from is perplexing. Ive tried it with my sound card removed and using the onbaord mic in (which has more hiss than my sound card). So its gotta be mainboard/inside orientated. Just as to how the actual hell i determine that I do not know. I bought a high end XLR shotgun to replace a cheap £20 mic, thought it would be a nice easy significant upgrade, obviously cant be having that can I. Im not confident an external interface will even solve it as its still gunna connect to my rig.
 

AaronD

Active Member
Damn man, that is a lot fo detail. Ive tried every variation of everything I could possibly find from multiple forums. The fact the Hiss is still there in the mixer even when the mic is discconected completely including the cable is perplexing. Even with mic inputs disabled its still there. Its got to be coming from my machine but where its coming from is perplexing. Ive tried it with my sound card removed and using the onbaord mic in (which has more hiss than my sound card). So its gotta be mainboard/inside orientated. Just as to how the actual hell i determine that I do not know. I bought a high end XLR shotgun to replace a cheap £20 mic, thought it would be a nice easy significant upgrade, obviously cant be having that can I. Im not confident an external interface will even solve it as its still gunna connect to my rig.
Everything you've tried so far has had an analog component inside your box. That's the problem, not any specific card. An external one with a digital connection to the box (like USB) won't have that.

It's not about connecting to your box. It's about HOW it connects to your box. So far, you've only ever tried one connection method: analog mic-level, straight-in.

For why it's still noisy even with no cable, that's because there's analog circuitry *inside* the box, between the jack and the converter chip, and *that's* what's noisy. No cable required. Again, get a decent converter, in its own box, that connects digitally to the PC, and it won't do that.

No cable is NOT no signal. Analog *always* has a signal. No cable in analog simply means *uncontrolled* signal, but it's still a signal.
 

JustLinkStudios

New Member
Everything you've tried so far has had an analog component inside your box. That's the problem, not any specific card. An external one with a digital connection to the box (like USB) won't have that.

It's not about connecting to your box. It's about HOW it connects to your box. So far, you've only ever tried one connection method: analog mic-level, straight-in.

For why it's still noisy even with no cable, that's because there's analog circuitry *inside* the box, between the jack and the converter chip, and *that's* what's noisy. No cable required. Again, get a decent converter, in its own box, that connects digitally to the PC, and it won't do that.

No cable is NOT no signal. Analog *always* has a signal. No cable in analog simply means *uncontrolled* signal, but it's still a signal.
Makes sense and is easier to understand, great explanation. I’m going to get an external interface, it’s the only option I have now anyway. Really appreciate the help mate.
 
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