Question / Help 2nd Streaming PC, build questions

[SideStrafe]

Hey all,

I just got back into live streaming on Twitch and it's been great so far. I think I've got my OBS settings down pretty well, however, I'm taking a frame hit that to me isn't acceptable. This is also using the Avermedia Live Gamer HD.

http://www.twitch.tv/sidestrafe - Some VODs for quality/performance check.

Current Rig/Specs that matter...

Intel i7 920 @3.4Ghz
Corsair Vengeance 16GB 1600
nVidia GTX 680 SC Plus
Avermeida Live Gamer HD Capture Card
Fiber Optic 25/25 internet

Streaming at 720p 30/48fps
3400 bit rate CBR, AAC 160 audio

I haven't had many complaints in regards to the stream, my viewers seem fine with those stream settings. The issues are mostly on my end in regards to frame rate.

Obviously my processor is becoming a major bottle neck and streaming is CPU intensive, however, I'm waiting on the new Intel chips to drop before building a new rig. With that said I still don't mind building a dedicated stream box if it will give me absolute gaming performance. My question is what kind of CPU can I get away with? Does it need to be an i7 or will an i5 get the job done? It's only a $100 difference but thought I'd check all the same. Plus the Avermedia card will be doing some of the work as well. I've seen some guides and most go with an i7 but I'm just wondering if thats needed.

Any thoughts on the matter, critique or suggestions for my current setup would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[WayZHC]

Have you considered buying a new cpu and mobo for the gaming pc and leaving your current cpu and mobo for that dedicated stream pc? That's what i would do since you don't need newest i5, i7 or Xeon for dedicated stream pc but you can get Ivy or Haswell for your gaming pc.

And remember that Avermedia LGHD doesn't do any work in terms of encoding. It's only for capturing your source (gaming pc). It can't capture and encode at the same time. And even if it did work that way you wouldn't want to use it anyway. Just use x264 on your CPU.

 

[Kharay]

Your CPU hardly is a "major bottleneck". Personally, I'm on an i5 760 and streaming in 60 FPS @ 720p is not an issue. Although I have settled on doing it at 48 FPS instead; just to have that little extra quality. However, I will say this -- one of the VODs there is of World of Tanks and World of Tanks is poorly optimized. Awfully much so even, it's a horrendous title as far as optimization goes and should not really be used to benchmark your system's performance for streaming purposes.

That being said -- Would you happen to have a recent log for a session you find to be somewhat lacking in framerate? http://obsproject.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=97

 

[SideStrafe]

The other issue is that I was looking at making a Shuttle or micro ATX build. It seems that trying to find a 1366 Micro ATX board is quite difficult or extremely over priced.

And I hear what you're saying about the LGHD, my expertise is mostly in regards to local capture for YouTube videos. Streaming is of course a different beast. Thanks.

 

[SideStrafe]

Your CPU hardly is a "major bottleneck". Personally, I'm on an i5 760 and streaming in 60 FPS @ 720p is not an issue. Although I have settled on doing it at 48 FPS instead; just to have that little extra quality. However, I will say this -- one of the VODs there is of World of Tanks and World of Tanks is poorly optimized. Awfully much so even, it's a horrendous title as far as optimization goes and should not really be used to benchmark your system's performance for streaming purposes.

That being said -- Would you happen to have a recent log for a session you find to be somewhat lacking in framerate? viewtopic.php?f=5&t=97

I'm aware of the poor optimization in World of Tanks, I also did a ArmA 2 DayZ stream last night... and I know it's also not a shining example of optimization. However, I can usually pull 60+ frames from both titles until I start streaming. Here's a paste of that log file...

20:03:45: Open Broadcaster Software v0.542b - 32bit (´・ω・｀)
20:03:45: -------------------------------
20:03:45: CPU Name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU         920  @ 2.67GHz
20:03:45: CPU Speed: 3391MHz
20:03:45: Physical Memory:  4095MB Total, 4095MB Free
20:03:45: stepping id: 5, model 10, family 6, type 0, extmodel 0, extfamily 0, HTT 1, logical cores 8, total cores 4
20:03:45: monitor 1: pos={0, 0}, size={1920, 1080}
20:03:45: Windows Version: 6.1 Build 7601 S
20:03:45: Aero is Disabled
20:03:45: -------------------------------
20:03:45: OBS Modules:
20:03:45: Base Address     Module
20:03:45: 00030000         OBS.exe
20:03:45: 5F270000         OBSApi.dll
20:03:45: 5F620000         DShowPlugin.dll
20:03:45: 629C0000         GraphicsCapture.dll
20:03:45: 68710000         NoiseGate.dll
20:03:45: 62700000         PSVPlugin.dll
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Adapter 1
20:03:45:   Video Adapter: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680
20:03:45:   Video Adapter Dedicated Video Memory: 2091581440
20:03:45:   Video Adapter Shared System Memory: 2147807232
20:03:45: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 20:03:45===============================================
20:03:45:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
20:03:45:   Base resolution: 1280x720
20:03:45:   Output resolution: 1280x720
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Loading up D3D10...
20:03:45: Playback device Default
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Audio Encoding: AAC
20:03:45:     bitrate: 160
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
20:03:45:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
20:03:45:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
20:03:45:     audio device: Disable,
20:03:45:     audio device id Disabled,
20:03:45: 
20:03:45: Using directshow input
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:45: Video Encoding: x264
20:03:45:     fps: 48
20:03:45:     width: 1280, height: 720
20:03:45:     preset: veryfast
20:03:45:     CBR: yes
20:03:45:     CFR: no
20:03:45:     max bitrate: 3400
20:03:45: ------------------------------------------
20:03:48: Total frames rendered: 159, number of frames that lagged: 0 (0.00%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
20:03:49: =====Stream End: 2013-07-29, 20:03:49=================================================
20:04:14: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 20:04:14===============================================
20:04:14:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
20:04:14:   Base resolution: 1280x720
20:04:14:   Output resolution: 1280x720
20:04:14: ------------------------------------------
20:04:14: Loading up D3D10...
20:04:14: Playback device Default
20:04:14: ------------------------------------------
20:04:14: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
20:04:14: ------------------------------------------
20:04:14: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
20:04:14: ------------------------------------------
20:04:14: Audio Encoding: AAC
20:04:14:     bitrate: 160
20:04:14: ------------------------------------------
20:04:14:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
20:04:14:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
20:04:14:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
20:04:14:     audio device: Disable,
20:04:14:     audio device id Disabled,
20:04:14: 
20:04:14: Using directshow input
20:04:15: ------------------------------------------
20:04:15: Video Encoding: x264
20:04:15:     fps: 48
20:04:15:     width: 1280, height: 720
20:04:15:     preset: veryfast
20:04:15:     CBR: yes
20:04:15:     CFR: no
20:04:15:     max bitrate: 3400
20:04:15: ------------------------------------------
20:04:21: Total frames rendered: 296, number of frames that lagged: 0 (0.00%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
20:04:21: =====Stream End: 2013-07-29, 20:04:21=================================================
20:58:10: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 20:58:10===============================================
20:58:10:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
20:58:10:   Base resolution: 1280x720
20:58:10:   Output resolution: 1280x720
20:58:10: ------------------------------------------
20:58:10: Loading up D3D10...
20:58:10: Playback device Default
20:58:10: ------------------------------------------
20:58:10: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
20:58:10: ------------------------------------------
20:58:10: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
20:58:10: ------------------------------------------
20:58:10: Audio Encoding: AAC
20:58:10:     bitrate: 160
20:58:10: ------------------------------------------
20:58:10:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
20:58:10:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
20:58:10:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
20:58:10:     audio device: Disable,
20:58:10:     audio device id Disabled,
20:58:10: 
20:58:11: Using directshow input
20:58:11: ------------------------------------------
20:58:11: Video Encoding: x264
20:58:11:     fps: 48
20:58:11:     width: 1280, height: 720
20:58:11:     preset: veryfast
20:58:11:     CBR: yes
20:58:11:     CFR: no
20:58:11:     max bitrate: 3400
20:58:11: ------------------------------------------
20:58:17: Total frames rendered: 317, number of frames that lagged: 2 (0.63%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
20:58:18: =====Stream End: 2013-07-29, 20:58:18=================================================
21:03:35: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 21:03:35===============================================
21:03:35:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
21:03:35:   Base resolution: 1280x720
21:03:35:   Output resolution: 1280x720
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35: Loading up D3D10...
21:03:35: Playback device Default
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35: Audio Encoding: AAC
21:03:35:     bitrate: 160
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
21:03:35:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
21:03:35:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
21:03:35:     audio device: Disable,
21:03:35:     audio device id Disabled,
21:03:35: 
21:03:35: Using directshow input
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:35: Video Encoding: x264
21:03:35:     fps: 48
21:03:35:     width: 1280, height: 720
21:03:35:     preset: veryfast
21:03:35:     CBR: yes
21:03:35:     CFR: no
21:03:35:     max bitrate: 3400
21:03:35: ------------------------------------------
21:03:36: Using RTMP service: Twitch / Justin.tv
21:03:36:   Server selection: rtmp://live-iad-backup.justin.tv/app
21:03:38: SO_SNDBUF was at 261360
21:03:38: SO_SNDBUF is now 65536
21:33:44: Total frames rendered: 86834, number of frames that lagged: 9 (0.01%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
21:33:44: RTMPPublisher::SocketLoop: Aborting due to bStopping
21:33:44: Number of times waited to send: 738, Waited for a total of 2644948 bytes
21:33:44: Number of b-frames dropped: 5509 (6.4%), Number of p-frames dropped: 6795 (7.8%), Total 12304 (14%)
21:33:44: =====Stream End: 2013-07-29, 21:33:44=================================================
21:34:58: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 21:34:58===============================================
21:34:58:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
21:34:58:   Base resolution: 1280x720
21:34:58:   Output resolution: 1280x720
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58: Loading up D3D10...
21:34:58: Playback device Default
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58: Audio Encoding: AAC
21:34:58:     bitrate: 160
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
21:34:58:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
21:34:58:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
21:34:58:     audio device: Disable,
21:34:58:     audio device id Disabled,
21:34:58: 
21:34:58: Using directshow input
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:58: Video Encoding: x264
21:34:58:     fps: 48
21:34:58:     width: 1280, height: 720
21:34:58:     preset: veryfast
21:34:58:     CBR: yes
21:34:58:     CFR: no
21:34:58:     max bitrate: 3300
21:34:58: ------------------------------------------
21:34:59: Using RTMP service: Twitch / Justin.tv
21:34:59:   Server selection: rtmp://live-iad.justin.tv/app
21:35:01: SO_SNDBUF was at 261360
21:35:01: SO_SNDBUF is now 65536
22:51:32: Total frames rendered: 220532, number of frames that lagged: 3 (0.00%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
22:51:33: RTMPPublisher::SocketLoop: Aborting due to bStopping
22:51:33: Number of times waited to send: 0, Waited for a total of 0 bytes
22:51:33: Number of b-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Number of p-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Total 0 (0%)
22:51:33: =====Stream End: 2013-07-29, 22:51:33=================================================
23:09:44: =====Stream Start: 2013-07-29, 23:09:44===============================================
23:09:44:   Multithreaded optimizations: On
23:09:44:   Base resolution: 1280x720
23:09:44:   Output resolution: 1280x720
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44: Loading up D3D10...
23:09:44: Playback device Default
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44: Using desktop audio input: AVERMEDIA HD-1 (NVIDIA High Definition Audio)
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44: Using auxilary audio input: Microphone (AT2020 USB               )
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44: Audio Encoding: AAC
23:09:44:     bitrate: 160
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44:     device: AVerMedia HD Capture C985 Bus 3,
23:09:44:     device id \\?\pci#ven_1af2&dev_a001&subsys_a0011af2&rev_00#4&3908e232&0&0038#{65e8773d-8f56-11d0-a3b9-00a0c9223196}\{957bd672-7934-4b55-b81a-3e22b14c679a},
23:09:44:     chosen type: YV12, usingFourCC: true, res: 1280x720 - 1280x720, frameIntervals: 166666-666666, fourCC: 'YV12'
23:09:44:     audio device: Disable,
23:09:44:     audio device id Disabled,
23:09:44: 
23:09:44: Using directshow input
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:44: Video Encoding: x264
23:09:44:     fps: 48
23:09:44:     width: 1280, height: 720
23:09:44:     preset: veryfast
23:09:44:     CBR: yes
23:09:44:     CFR: no
23:09:44:     max bitrate: 3300
23:09:44: ------------------------------------------
23:09:46: Using RTMP service: Twitch / Justin.tv
23:09:46:   Server selection: rtmp://live-iad.justin.tv/app
23:09:47: SO_SNDBUF was at 261360
23:09:47: SO_SNDBUF is now 65536
01:30:12: Total frames rendered: 404523, number of frames that lagged: 4 (0.00%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
01:30:12: RTMPPublisher::SocketLoop: Aborting due to bStopping
01:30:12: Number of times waited to send: 0, Waited for a total of 0 bytes
01:30:12: Number of b-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Number of p-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Total 0 (0%)
01:30:12: =====Stream End: 2013-07-30, 01:30:12=================================================
01:31:07: 
01:31:07: Profiler results:
01:31:07: 
01:31:07: ==============================================================
01:31:07: frame - [100%] [avg time: 3.595 ms (cpu time: avg 2.997 ms, total 2.13589e+006 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1] [children: 99.8%] [unaccounted: 0.195%]
01:31:07: | frame preprocessing and rendering - [34.4%] [avg time: 1.238 ms (cpu time: avg 1.056 ms, total 753017 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1] [children: 20.1%] [unaccounted: 14.3%]
01:31:07: | | scene->Preprocess - [20.1%] [avg time: 0.723 ms (cpu time: avg 0.698 ms, total 497830 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1]
01:31:07: | video encoding and uploading - [65.4%] [avg time: 2.35 ms (cpu time: avg 1.937 ms, total 1.38097e+006 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1] [children: 64.1%] [unaccounted: 1.25%]
01:31:07: | | flush - [8.73%] [avg time: 0.314 ms (cpu time: avg 0.049 ms, total 35490.2 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1]
01:31:07: | | CopyResource - [0.751%] [avg time: 0.027 ms (cpu time: avg 0.015 ms, total 11029.3 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 0]
01:31:07: | | conversion to 4:2:0 - [0.223%] [avg time: 0.008 ms (cpu time: avg 0.006 ms, total 4758.03 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 0]
01:31:07: | | call to encoder - [53.6%] [avg time: 1.928 ms (cpu time: avg 1.819 ms, total 1.29654e+006 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 0]
01:31:07: | | sending stuff out - [0.779%] [avg time: 0.028 ms (cpu time: avg 0.018 ms, total 13228.9 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 0]
01:31:07: | Convert444Threads - [1.16e+003%] [avg time: 41.656 ms (cpu time: avg 2.523 ms, total 1.7985e+006 ms)] [avg calls per frame: 1]
01:31:07: ==============================================================
01:31:07:

 

[Kharay]

01:30:12: Total frames rendered: 404523, number of frames that lagged: 4 (0.00%) (it's okay for some frames to lag)
01:30:12: RTMPPublisher::SocketLoop: Aborting due to bStopping
01:30:12: Number of times waited to send: 0, Waited for a total of 0 bytes
01:30:12: Number of b-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Number of p-frames dropped: 0 (0%), Total 0 (0%)

As far as OBS is concerned, that's a brilliant performance. 4 frames lagging out of a total of over 400k frames? At 48 FPS that's less than a tenth of a second lost on a total of 140 and a half minutes. ;) I'd call that pretty damned awesome. :P

 

[WayZHC]

Seriously i have never seen that low "lagged frames count/%". What was your problem again? I forgot while i was looking for my jaw i dropped somewhere. Lol anyway seems like you dont have to worry about the stream at all :p

 

[SideStrafe]

Hah, well my frame rate in game is dropping. From my ArmA tests in some cases I'm losing 10fps or more when I hit the stream button. In a firefight or big city area it feels worse.

 

[dodgepong]

According to that log, your stream is performing brilliantly.

But to answer your OP's question directly, it all depends on the quality you want to stream at. An i5 would be perfectly serviceable for a dedicated streaming PC. An i7 will definitely give better performance but you can definitely use an i5 just fine if that's all you need. It's up to you.

Do note that you need a GPU that is fully compatible with DirectX 10 to run OBS...a lot of integrated GPUs don't fully support it even if they say they do. So just keep that in mind when building a second PC.

Regarding this:

the Avermedia card will be doing some of the work as well

The capture card doesn't really do any "work"...it just captures [Note: assuming we're talking about OBS, as OBS cannot utilize the Live Gamer HD's (crappy) encoder]. In a single-PC setup it doesn't give you any performance gains over Window capture or Game capture. It enables you to have a dual-PC setup, but even then it's the CPU that's doing the hard work, not the capture card.

Also:

I'm waiting on the new Intel chips to drop before building a new rig

By "drop" do you mean "drop in price" or "be released"? Because they are already released, assuming you're talking about Haswell.

 

[Kharay]

Hah, well my frame rate in game is dropping. From my ArmA tests in some cases I'm losing 10fps or more when I hit the stream button. In a firefight or big city area it feels worse.

Well, that is a minor issue at best, one that is easily fixed by toning down a few of the game's settings a bit. Some mechanics and effects don't come across well on-stream anyhow or are completely irrelevant to the viewers. Physics, (Indirect) Shadows/Lighting, Particle Effects all can safely be toned down a little to lift some pressure off the CPU and GPU. Key components to an attractive stream are Texture Quality, Resolution and Framerate. And an enjoyable streamer. ;)

 

[alpinlol]

okay bitfenix prodigy is one of the best itx cases right now because you can literally fit every shit in it.

your 680 is enough for anything in my opinion.

i like amd fx 8350 cause its an high end budget cpu but id still go with an i7 3770k ivy (1155)over i7 4770k haswell (1150)

an i5 3570k will do his job just fine with 720@60 with out a doubt. btw if you are not into oc'ing id recommend buying an Intel Xeon E3-1240v2 or the Intel Xeon E3-1245v2 if you need the integrated gpu for quicksync but thats another story


asus offers an awesome mini atx for like 150 bucks if you are into oc'ing your system if not id personally go with gigabyte have been using gigabytes boards for over 6 years now and never had a problem.

 

[SideStrafe]

By "drop" do you mean "drop in price" or "be released"? Because they are already released, assuming you're talking about Haswell.

Sorry I meant release, waiting on the 4820s I believe.

I was looking at the Shuttle SH67H3 which appears to support DX10, and was used in a video "stream pc" build I saw recently and does have room for dedicated graphics if I need it. Although with the capture card installed it would have to be a thin graphics card.

 

[alpinlol]

You mean you are waiting for the ivy e Bridge on the probably 2011 socket

Thats probably a good decision


Well i dont really like capture cards if you dont stream games of your console if thats not the case then its pretty much useless in my opinion

 

[dodgepong]

Well i dont really like capture cards if you dont stream games of your console if thats not the case then its pretty much useless in my opinion

If he's using a dual-PC setup, he needs a capture card. He would be treating his gaming PC like a console, in a sense.

As for the SH67H3, it still uses integrated graphics (doesn't specify exactly what kind) so I wouldn't trust that it would work fully with OBS.

I use a 560ti in my streaming box and it is more than enough.