Workflow for hybrid situations with Live and Zoom audience

[Zuppo]

Hi all,

Hope you are all sound and safe. Since C hopefully won't last forever, maybe it's wise to think ahead and picture a situation that combines a live audience with a Zoom audience participating at the same event. I 'm thinking about how to set everything up in order to allow the live audience AND Zoom users in the meeting to ask questions (in audio) to the experts or moderator that are present in de 'live' meeting.

The main problem I see is that if a Zoom-participant asks a question the sound of the Zoom meeting has to go to the live audience. So I must provide a PC with a Zoom session running on it and capture the image and sound to go to the live-room's videoswitcher and mixing console. But when the moderator or one of the experts reacts, the Zoom sound to the mixing console has to be cut off.

This can probably be done by switching off the Zoom-channel in the main-out mix manually but it's not an elegant solution.
Can anyone think of an alternative that let's you capture only the sound of the participants of a Zoom meeting? Can OBS be helpfull?
Grz!
-Z-

(PS: I 'm thinking of a setup with the ATEM MINI Pro or Extreme as a switcher and use it as a USB-camera and sound capturing device to go to Zoom (via OBS). The images will come from cam's and pc's. The sound will come from the mixing desk The mixer has a main out, monitor out and FX send). I will probably make a separate mix in order to avoid that the Zoom sound can't be returned to the Zoom session.)

 

[koala]

Why do you need to mute the Zoom meeting while someone from the live audience talks? Do you want to avoid 2 people talking simultaneously and giving the live audience talk priority?

You can perhaps use an audio ducking feature for this, implemented in the mixer you use for the local/live audience. It reduces the volume of some audio channel (audio from Zoom) dependent of some other audio channel (the mic of the local audience).

OBS itself is able to do audio ducking, but only for "outgoing" audio. You want to silence incoming audio, and for this you need to implement ducking in the audio mixer you're using for your local/live audience.

 

[Zuppo]

@koala Thank you for your reply. This is by all means a very useful hint. I should have explained that the workflow that I have in mind uses two seperate Zoom sessions on 2 separate pc's. One session being the host session to which te switcher image and audio are connected as a webcam. The other can be a co-host Zoom-session and has the audio out going to the mixer. When I use this setting the answers coming from the live-room will be also on the audio coming in from this second Zoom-session. So the speakers in the live room will hear themselves twice. Of course that wouldn't be a problem if I can use only one session, because the host-audio will not be hearable 'by default'. So ... my question is: can I have the right setup using only the main host zoom session?

 

[PeteB]

Maybe a little late in responding but I have just spent a while devising a solution for our church for the same issue. I have attached a diagram of our setup. I have used inexpensive video cameras with HDMI-USB adapters and a QU24 sound desk for the live venue. The QU24 attaches to the PC via ASIO. So when the live venue is active I use a scene that comprises of the desk mix and the video cameras using Audio Monitor filters, virtual cables and virtual cameras to send the output to Zoom running on the same PC. When a Zoom participant wishes to speak I have a separate scene that does a window capture from Zoom and another virtual cable input to send the zoom audio to the desk. This scene has no Audio monitor input to zoom; the live venue scene has no audio input from zoom, hence you avoid any feedback loops. I use a projector in the live venue that displays the OBS Output which will either be from the cameras in the venue or the Zoom session.

The good part about using Audio Monitor filters is that it allows more flexibility to sync the audio and video for recording/ live and Zoom sessions.

 

[jSundb]

Maybe a little late in responding but I have just spent a while devising a solution for our church for the same issue. I have attached a diagram of our setup. I have used inexpensive video cameras with HDMI-USB adapters and a QU24 sound desk for the live venue. The QU24 attaches to the PC via ASIO. So when the live venue is active I use a scene that comprises of the desk mix and the video cameras using Audio Monitor filters, virtual cables and virtual cameras to send the output to Zoom running on the same PC. When a Zoom participant wishes to speak I have a separate scene that does a window capture from Zoom and another virtual cable input to send the zoom audio to the desk. This scene has no Audio monitor input to zoom; the live venue scene has no audio input from zoom, hence you avoid any feedback loops. I use a projector in the live venue that displays the OBS Output which will either be from the cameras in the venue or the Zoom session.

The good part about using Audio Monitor filters is that it allows more flexibility to sync the audio and video for recording/ live and Zoom sessions.

Hi Pete, this seems really helpful, but complex! I'm new to OBS and was hoping that there would be a way to run the sound from the live venue through OBS to the live stream, as well as have the zoom sound output to the live room audio.

In your setup, are your virtual attendees all in zoom? or do you livestream to YouTube?

 

[konsolenritter]

I should have explained that the workflow that I have in mind uses two seperate Zoom sessions on 2 separate pc's. One session being the host session to which te switcher image and audio are connected as a webcam. The other can be a co-host Zoom-session and has the audio out going to the mixer.

You perfectly recognized the loop. You can route anything you want in between live and zoom, but there has strictly to be just one computer handling the zoom sessions audio part. (Thats valid for any type of online conferencing system.) These conferencing tools have echo-cancelling techniques onboard for the single station, assuming that all the participants in the online meeting are (audio based) isolated from each other.

So you can use local microphones (typically using aux-busses from the mixing desk) into the zoom pc and have audio output from it running to the p.a./loudspeakers (due to normal channelstrips into the main-bus). But even if you have more sessions locally (for instance having more camera support), all the audio on further session pc's have to be strictly muted at all. The generic rule is to have just one single station for audio, and the routing audio out to zoom (or others) and the way back in from zoom have to travel thru this single point.

As always there are general hints like "Don't make it any louder than needed." for instance, to not stimulating/boosting echoic issues intentionally. =D

 

[konsolenritter]

Additional hint:
If there is such an online conference/meeting but someone plans to stream to YT additionaly, the sound may go out to YT thru the same or even another workstation. Because YT is a one-way system, there will be lag, but no possibility for an unconditional audio loop (as far as no meeting participant plays the YT stream remotely into his mic, too). =D

 

[JCL]

Hi,

Sorry for using this topic but I believe I may have the same situation with the audio in/out.

Just to check if my setup for hybrid events (local &/OR zoom panelists; local & zoom attendees) will perform correctly.

We have a setup with 2 local PCs andthe venue is a small room (circa 30/40 attendees)

- One for the local panelist/presenter where he:

can see the ZOOM window;​

share a presentation on a second local large screen;​

get is image with a local webcam transmitted to zoom;​

​

Local Audio in (MIC) and Out are both disabled;​

The local panelist/presenter talks to a MIC connected to the local PA system;​

​

- the other one is a Host Control PC who hosts the ZOOM webinar and:

​

- where a webcam (no audio) with a panoramic view of the local attendees is injected in the zoom webinar;​

- local sound (mic from panelists or audio from local attendees) is injected from the local PA system line-out to a IK iRigStream USB device that feeds it to the zoom session (we tested this with full success);​

- when needed, shared a ZOOM Window gallery of ZOOM attendees from this computer to the local large screen (HDMI switching back & forth from the other Presenter PC);​

​

However, for the audio of the ZOOM attendees to be heard locally if needed be (either for a ZOOM Panelist or a ZOOM attendee question), we need to inject the audio out of this PC to the local PA system: will this loop back to feedback or will the ZOOm host control reduced the sound of it somehow?
Note that the PA System is being injected trough the iRigStream device as an audio input to the session. The PA System is mono, very simple (and old, although perfectly functional) and we can only reduce the volume to zero (no on/off sound button per channel).

will it work?

Thanks in advance for any help.

JCL

​

 

[konsolenritter]

Your scenario is right in the first manner.

The audio injection of the zoom-in into your local P.A. have to use the same pc (the second one) as vice versa. It should work as long as the echo canceler from the zoom client sees both audio at once: the outgoing and the incoming.

It can be still a problem that your path back from your P.A. folds back the replayed audio (coming from zoom) 1:1 into the zoom session again. As said: As long as the EC (echo canceling) from the zoom client works well, it should do. The goal for EC is to eliminate (suppress) foldback from the room. It helps a bit if the incoming audio from remote is lower in level than the local mic level. In general all levels should be kept as low as possible if local sound reinforcement (P.A.) is involved. Otherwise: Too much screaming than streaming. ;D

It turns definitely bad if you fold back the local audio into another pc (zoom client) than the remote incoming. Not just zoom: All modern meeting software expects different online participants to sit at different, isolated locations. So a client can't know that a delayed audio coming from remote origins by its own room.

The separation of the audio can be vastly improved if you have a mixing desk between your audio devices and the P.A., in special a mixer with aux out or sub groups with physical outs. I'll give you an example:

Channel 1 of the mixer is a local mic that should play to the P.A. (via the main mixing bus of the mixer) as well as into the streaming bus (hence a separate aux or sub group!)
Channel 2 is the audio-in from the zoom session. It should play into the P.A. only over the main bus but not folding back into the streaming bus.

So the rule is: What should be heard remotely should go into the aux or sub group as well, but the channel(s) from remote should be routed exclusively to the P.A. (main bus), not the sending bus (in case of aux: turn the aux send completely down at those channels; in case of subgroup: leave unrouted at those channels). That way the audio levels for local audience and the remote parties could easily handled independently. If it fits the local P.A. but is to hot for the zoom meeting, lower the sending aux or group.

 

[konsolenritter]

Still a generic hint: Behold on the hdmi sources involved. They may carry audio as well. Hence hdmi audio sources appear in windows as different "soundcards" you have to disable or mute them in the windows audio mixer intentionally by hand (if not needed otherwise).

 

[JCL]

Your scenario is right in the first manner.

The audio injection of the zoom-in into your local P.A. have to use the same pc (the second one) as vice versa. It should work as long as the echo canceler from the zoom client sees both audio at once: the outgoing and the incoming.

It can be still a problem that your path back from your P.A. folds back the replayed audio (coming from zoom) 1:1 into the zoom session again. As said: As long as the EC (echo canceling) from the zoom client works well, it should do. The goal for EC is to eliminate (suppress) foldback from the room. It helps a bit if the incoming audio from remote is lower in level than the local mic level. In general all levels should be kept as low as possible if local sound reinforcement (P.A.) is involved. Otherwise: Too much screaming than streaming. ;D

It turns definitely bad if you fold back the local audio into another pc (zoom client) than the remote incoming. Not just zoom: All modern meeting software expects different online participants to sit at different, isolated locations. So a client can't know that a delayed audio coming from remote origins by its own room.

The separation of the audio can be vastly improved if you have a mixing desk between your audio devices and the P.A., in special a mixer with aux out or sub groups with physical outs. I'll give you an example:

Channel 1 of the mixer is a local mic that should play to the P.A. (via the main mixing bus of the mixer) as well as into the streaming bus (hence a separate aux or sub group!)
Channel 2 is the audio-in from the zoom session. It should play into the P.A. only over the main bus but not folding back into the streaming bus.

So the rule is: What should be heard remotely should go into the aux or sub group as well, but the channel(s) from remote should be routed exclusively to the P.A. (main bus), not the sending bus (in case of aux: turn the aux send completely down at those channels; in case of subgroup: leave unrouted at those channels). That way the audio levels for local audience and the remote parties could easily handled independently. If it fits the local P.A. but is to hot for the zoom meeting, lower the sending aux or group.

Thanks you for the input and explanations confirming my understanding of it. We will test again at the end of next week. Hoping we can manage it with the ZOOM canceling echo feature and without the need to buy a mixer with different channel level outputs.

But, If that would be the case, what would be a good option for a mixer with 2 channel level outputs? Is there a more complete mixer with USB connection that would replace also the IK iRig Stream device we are using? (The iRigStream is a personal lone and we are testing to buy one)

We just need:
- 2 XLR inputs (1 is for a simple conference desk mic, the other one is for a wireless mic for the audience);
- 1 RCA level input for connecting the ZOOM Session Controller PC sound out (from other ZOOM online attendees);
- 1 output (RCA/level to USB? we use the iRigStream for this) to input the local mic mix to the ZOOM Session Controller PC to be streamed online;
- obviously, the mixed output will connect to the local PA System.

Edit: Would this be an option?

Alesis MultiMix 4 USB FX

Alesis MultiMix 4 USB FX - 4-Channel Mixer with Effects & USB Audio Interface

www.alesis.com

Thanks again for your help,

JCL

 

[JCL]

Thanks you for the input and explanations confirming my understanding of it. We will test again at the end of next week. Hoping we can manage it with the ZOOM canceling echo feature and without the need to buy a mixer with different channel level outputs.

But, If that would be the case, what would be a good option for a mixer with 2 channel level outputs? Is there a more complete mixer with USB connection that would replace also the IK iRig Stream device we are using? (The iRigStream is a personal lone and we are testing to buy one)

We just need:
- 2 XLR inputs (1 is for a simple conference desk mic, the other one is for a wireless mic for the audience);
- 1 RCA level input for connecting the ZOOM Session Controller PC sound out (from other ZOOM online attendees);
- 1 output (RCA/level to USB? we use the iRigStream for this) to input the local mic mix to the ZOOM Session Controller PC to be streamed online;
- obviously, the mixed output will connect to the local PA System.

Edit: Would this be an option?

Alesis MultiMix 4 USB FX

Alesis MultiMix 4 USB FX - 4-Channel Mixer with Effects & USB Audio Interface

www.alesis.com

Thanks again for your help,

JCL

I'm find it hard also to encounter in Europe a RCA to 3.5 mini jack MIC/Lin in cable...

Only found this in USA:

Sescom Pro Audio Cables, Converters, Adapters and Extenders

Since 1975, Sescom has been the leader in professional audio cables, converters, extenders and more. We serve the television production, rental, live events, stage and sound, sports, educational, and government markets due to our competitive pricing and dedication to quality production.

www.sescom.com

Any suggestion for a EU buy?

Thanks again...

JCL

 

[lcluster]

I have also been trying to come up with a good solution for this. The meeting room they want to use for the hybrid meetings in large, a capacity of about 75 people, with the select board sitting at a row of desks at the front. 10 shure desk mic's. 4 ptz cameras, a couple of old shure mixers and a behringer USB mixer. I will attach images of my setup, it works but is very complicated. Would love to come up with a better solution.