No audio on mono Android phones

Hopecov

New Member
We are using OBS to livestream from church through Facebook Live. We bring audio out from our Allen and Heath sound board through an XLR monitor channel terminating in TRS, which goes into an RGB Link audio/video mixer box, then out via HDMI to our Mac Mini.
The OBS shows identical L/R channel audio inputs on the indicator bars. All listeners using desktop or laptop computers or iPhones can hear audio equally in both L/R. Individuals listening on mono android phones only do not get any audio. Where can we do to fix this? TIA!
 

AaronD

Active Member
Just because an adapter has plugs that fit, does NOT mean that it actually works. Here's what happened for you:

XLR pinout:
  1. (X) Shield
  2. (L) Live, or positive signal
  3. (R) Return, or negative signal
THIS IS NOT STEREO!!! Stereo is two different signals for two different speakers. This is a single mono signal for a single speaker, taken as the *difference* between the two signal wires. That allows whatever noise was picked up equally by both, to drop out, leaving only the intended signal...if it was sent correctly as a *difference*, like your board does.

TRS pinout (as you're using it):
  1. (Sleeve) Ground, or shared negative signal
  2. (Ring) Right positive signal
  3. (Tip) Left positive signal
THIS is stereo.

Your wiring adapter simply connects the same pin numbers together as I listed them here. When your board drives equal and opposite signals on the XLR (not the only way to make a difference, but a very common one), you get the same meter on both sides and it sounds the same. But when you mix the two recorded channels together, as you do to create mono out of stereo, their exact oppositeness makes them cancel out.

A quick-and-dirty hack would be to take only one channel - left or right, it doesn't matter which - drop the other, and only stream/record that one. You're not losing anything because it was never stereo to start with.

The real solution is to use either an unbalanced output from the board or an "impedance balanced" output, and wire that EXPLICITLY - not through a cheap off-the-shelf adapter that you bought, but solder it yourself so that you KNOW it's right - to an available input in a way that you can then take as mono.
Or, you could switch your stream to actual-stereo by using 2 outputs from the board, and wire them (explicitly again) to each side of your analog line-in.

Notes:
  • "Signal balanced" is equal and opposite.
  • "Impedance balanced" drives only one wire of a balanced pair, through a resistor to keep the driver from going nuts with a weird cable, and has an equal-value resistor from the other wire to ground.
Both methods create a difference between wires, and keep the equal-noise pickup that is the real point of a balanced cable run. Taking that difference at the receiving end, still causes the equal noise to drop out, which is again the entire purpose of a balanced cable run.



Not to sound harsh, but if you're going to work with serious media gear, it really helps immensely to understand the functional details of how they work. The industry was built on that and is still very much that way. The best operators can still field-repair all of what they have for themselves, and build a complete rig from dirt if they have to.

So the common gotchas like the above are very well known and automatically avoided...except by lay people who were handed a "spaceship control panel" and told to figure it out. But that's also how a lot of us learned, so you're still not in too bad of company. ;-)
 

Hopecov

New Member
Aaron, thank you for your very complete reply, as a layperson, I do appreciate it.
I expected it was related to the XLR to TPS adaptor, but clearly didn't have the expertise to diagnose or correct it.
We send a mono signal to the house, and the intent is to send a mono signal to our OBS and FB live. We are are using a separate broadcast sound mix through one of the mono mix outputs which are XLR on our board. I don't believe there is an option for one of the monitor mixes to be sent via an unbalanced output. The intent is to allow the mono signal be received by both L and R in OBS so that anyone listening on earphones can hear the same signal in both ears.

I appreciate your expertise and if you would indulge a couple of questions:

Why does our system work to send a mono signal to both L/R on iPhones and desktop/laptop PC computers but not on Android phones?

To allow this to work correctly I will need to make a modification as you indicated to our XLR mono mix output. From the A&H manual for the mix output:
"Professional equipment provides 'balanced' connections for maximum interference rejection over long cable runs. If you are connecting to 'unbalanced' equipment then make sure the XLR pin 3 (signal cold) is linked to pin 1 (signal ground)."
Can I modify the XLR cable out of the board to link pin 3 to pin 1, and if so can you guide me?

I appreciate your expertise to help this rookie.
 

AaronD

Active Member
We are are using a separate broadcast sound mix through one of the mono mix outputs which are XLR on our board.
Good. The PA mix is usually terrible for anything besides the PA. Lots of people don't realize that, likely I think because they assume that *all* the sound in the room is coming from the PA, which it most definitely isn't!

I don't believe there is an option for one of the monitor mixes to be sent via an unbalanced output.
What board is it? Maybe a trip through manual could turn one up.

The intent is to allow the mono signal be received by both L and R in OBS so that anyone listening on earphones can hear the same signal in both ears.
If your entire rig is mono, then you can set OBS to mono as well. Settings -> Audio. That'll move the output problem up to the input side of OBS instead. You haven't solved the problem yet, by doing that, but you've moved it where you can see it better, which makes it a little bit easier to solve.

Why does our system work to send a mono signal to both L/R on iPhones and desktop/laptop PC computers but not on Android phones?
It's not "a signal" that is sent to both sides. It's a miscommunication because of the adapter, that results in what the rest of the system treats as *two* separate signals. One is sent to the left only, and the other is sent to the right only.

The system doesn't know that those two signals are exact opposites of each other. They're not the same; they're opposite. No difference at all in how they sound, but when you put them together, you get nothing.
The same actually happens in the air between the two speakers, but there's often enough unequal acoustics going on that it muddies things up to where you don't notice as much.

To allow this to work correctly I will need to make a modification as you indicated to our XLR mono mix output. From the A&H manual for the mix output:
"Professional equipment provides 'balanced' connections for maximum interference rejection over long cable runs. If you are connecting to 'unbalanced' equipment then make sure the XLR pin 3 (signal cold) is linked to pin 1 (signal ground)."
That's...incomplete at best. Is it signal balanced or impedance balanced? The manual should say somewhere. If it's signal balanced, is it floating or not? If so, is it transformer floating (probably not: that's the best possible compatibility but really expensive, so it's usually not done) or electronic floating?

The answers to all of that, determines the best way to wire it. A blanket statement like you quoted is not enough. If that's really all that the manual says, then A&H is really slipping!

For what it's worth, I have one of these in a standalone youth center:
I put some metal straps on the end caps to hold it slightly off the desk, with a single bolt in each end of the meterbridge to act as a hinge, so I can flip it up in-place and work on it with everything still plugged in, and in some cases powered on, with real signals. I keep the bottom covers off for the same reason; they're stacked against the wall instead.

The top-right corner of pages 13 and 14 of the schematic, and the right side of page 16, show the electronic floating balanced outputs. Like the transformer version, the signal always appears as a difference between the two wires, with the less-restricted one having more "swing". So if you leave one disconnected, then most of the signal will appear there and not on the one that *is* hooked up. That's why it says to ground the unused one for unbalanced operation.

BUT! Unlike a transformer, each output of an electronic floating output is still limited to the supply rails:
  • If you leave one disconnected, it'll take most of the signal until it hits that limit, and then the other one will be forced to take over. This happens almost instantaneously, well within the wave itself, and consequently sounds terrible!
  • If you ground the unused one, then the other takes all of the signal, so then it sounds like it's supposed to, but you lose half of the total swing, which translates to 6dB of headroom. Remember that, when you watch the meter on the board: the electronic floating output driver may clip about 6dB before the meter says it is.
My board does have some impedance balanced outputs as well, but they're harder to find on the schematic. They just tack a resistor onto an existing internal signal somewhere, and the other end of that resistor goes to the positive ("hot") wire in the jack. The matching resistor from the negative ("cold") wire to ground is on a different page of the schematic.

(it's a terrible example of how to lay out a schematic to be easy to read, but everything is technically on there)

Can I modify the XLR cable out of the board to link pin 3 to pin 1, and if so can you guide me?

I appreciate your expertise to help this rookie.
I would not modify the board at all, unless you're really, absolutely sure that you (or the next user) are never going to need the original functionality from it. Always modify the cords if possible, and only when not, think about changing the board itself.

I *have* modified several boards, but as I'm sure you can imagine, there's a lot more going on in there than there is inside the connector for a single wire!



Back to what I said earlier in this post, the reason to know what type of output you actually have, is because there's no universal way to make a passive balanced to unbalanced converter that is compatible with all of them. For example, if your balanced outputs are not floating at all, but actively drive both wires independently, and you ground one side of it, then that side of the output driver may eventually blow up. You may or may not hear a difference, but if it later ends up driving a 100' snake to stage for a different use, that's going to pick up a ton of noise because it's not actually balanced anymore.
 
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AaronD

Active Member
We are using OBS to livestream from church through Facebook Live. We bring audio out from our Allen and Heath sound board through an XLR monitor channel terminating in TRS, which goes into an RGB Link audio/video mixer box, then out via HDMI to our Mac Mini.
The OBS shows identical L/R channel audio inputs on the indicator bars. All listeners using desktop or laptop computers or iPhones can hear audio equally in both L/R. Individuals listening on mono android phones only do not get any audio. Where can we do to fix this? TIA!
Another thing to think about is whether you actually need the box between the raw signals and the computer. Can you just run everything straight in? If so, then you can buy an XLR -> USB interface and be done with it:
Board -> XLR -> USB -> Computer with OBS
That *is* universally compatible because the XLR input is an *active* balanced receiver, that actually does the subtraction of one wire from the other. No need to "trick" a balanced output of unknown type into driving an unbalanced input instead.

Generally, TS and TRS are so overused that you really need to know *exactly* what each use is and make sure for yourself that you have everything straight. Those connectors allow you to plug anything into anything, regardless of compatibility, so to avoid confusion, try to avoid them whenever possible. That's a lot easier now than it used to be!
 
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Hopecov

New Member
Aaron, Thanks again for your thoughtful reply,
I'm out of town right now, so will need to get to the board to do more work on it this week. We have an A&H Qu24 purchased in 2021.
There is an Alt out that could potentially work

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Hopecov

New Member
Thanks, I will look into running the audio into the Mac mini. It initially appeared simple to run both the audio-only from the board and the video-only (via HDMI) from the cameras both into the RGBlink Mini which then sends the combined A/V signal to the Mac mini via one USB. We currently are using all of our ports in the Mac mini, so we will need to use an adaptor to attach a couple of devices through one USB input. I will reply later with results, Thanks!
 

AaronD

Active Member
If that USB is multitrack only and can't be 2-ch stereo, which is how it appears in the manual, then you'll probably need something between the USB cord and OBS to extract just the channels that you want. If OBS gets all 32 channels or whatever it is, it'll treat it like 16 stereo pairs that must be mixed down to a single stereo signal, and THEN it gives you that mixdown to work with.

If you can go into the settings on the board and make the other 30 or so silent, that can work too. But if you can't, then you'll need a DAW or at least a software re-mapper of some kind, than can select individual input channels and pass them on to OBS.

If you end up with a DAW, then it would be better to do ALL of your stream-specific audio processing in there, and not in OBS. Better still though, would be to do ALL of your audio processing, period, in the board.
 

Hopecov

New Member
Aaron, Thanks again for your replies. We got an XLR-USB cable, and ran it from the XLR 'mix output' from the board, directly into one of the Mac mini USB inputs as you had suggested. It shows up as a mono signal on the OSB screen, and is heard correctly on devices using both mono and stereo speakers or headphones. The audio and video are still closely synched. We are also recording the audio using Audacity software on the Mac mini that we use to push out to our podcast, and that audio file also seemed to work correctly.
 
I have been dealing with this and now know what is happening. I have an Allen & Heath Q32 and am using #7 out which is XLr - balanced. The cancelling by the way the adapter is wired should have hit me. we are using it like hopecov - the Q32 goes to a Blackmagic input, 1/8 inch stereo, i was gong to do a ring out of the cable and my multimeter battery was dead and i did not ge back to it. I am almost sure it is the two signals to the TR. pins. Having problems wondering how i could have missed that. I am considering a solution, XLR cable to a direct box, a 1./4 inch mono from its output to a stereo 1/8 going into the blaclmagic, that should take the mono signal from T on the 1/4 to the t and r on the 1/8, tthe shields tied together to form 2 ubalanced inputs. My best success on any mismatch of bal/ubbal has been with a direct. A decent direct box is under $30 - beter ones con go way up, this solution is about $50. It is also a solution that can be had with off the shelf items.

AaronD Thanks for your input. It got me past a brain lapse. I was not looking at phase. I wish i had a two trace scope to look at what I am getting but i am 99.9999% sure.

Your thoughts.
Ralph Brandt
media NCCC
K3HQI
 
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