Is OBS quick enough to play with edited results live?

I noticed when I play Galactic pinball on the Virtual Boy that my flippers are kind of late.

I have a double tapped consoleized Virtual Boy with twin VGA one for the left eye one for the right eye.

I noticed when I go through VGA it seems pretty quick but when I go through a VGA to composite converter and then merge the two composite shots of the left eye and right eye to make a 3D anaglyph somehow I'm kind of late with the flipper.

But the problem with going through VGA is I can't get twin eyes going to VGA without having one scroll over the other.

Some people suggested that OBS and other similar video editors are fast enough where I could pipe the left eye and right eye as separate inputs and pipe them out to a secondary display and if that display is a 1 millisecond display then it should be just as quick to let OBS combine the black and red eye with a black and cyan eye to make an anaglyph 3D picture as it would be to have an external box combine the two VGA signals.

I have found VGA to HDMI converters that are quick enough to handle most things.

I just want to make sure all I have to buy is another HDMI to USB input and merge them within OBS and it should be a low ping 3D virtual boy.

I heard the monitor is the largest source of ping and if you can minimize than then you're doing pretty well.

I know just take the black and red eye and take the black and cyan eye an RGB additive merge them.

The biggest question is will it be quick enough to play Live or is there a quicker way to merge two slightly out of sync VGA signals than OBS?
 

AaronD

Active Member
For almost all of what OBS does, 1/4 second latency is considered "pretty good". But even 1/4 second is going to completely mess up *your* application. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up needing a hardware solution, not software.

I have a project myself in the back of my mind, not started yet, that I'm going to go directly to a custom-programmed FPGA on, to modify live HDMI, pixel-by-pixel, not even a whole frame. That severely limits what you can do of course, but what I'm doing doesn't need to know anything about the other pixels, so it *should* work.

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HDMI -> USB? Forget it!

The cheap ones even have *variable* latency! Every time you turn them on, they're different! I had 4 of those in a previous rig, and they were *always* out of sync with each other, by different amounts and directions each time.
Not to mention the deceptive marketing to have a USB 2 chip behind a USB 3 connector, along with the standard comparison about how much better 3 is than 2......if it actually *was*!!! So they have to compress, in the card, just to shove it through USB 2, despite having the connector for USB 3.

The expensive ones really are what they say they are, with about 1/4 second latency, but you need practically instant. So still not good.

Internal capture cards are about the same as name-brand USB 3. High-quality picture with 1/4 second latency. So that doesn't work so well for you either.

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I think you need to look at a dedicated hardware solution, not through a computer in any form.
 
Well. Best Buy will let me try their HDMI to Composite converter (one of them).

I know my Composite Video Combiner is close enough to instant to not effect gameplay, going from Composite to HDMI via Retrotink 2X M Pro.

If one VGA signal converts to HDMI via Amazon Adapter, then Composite via the Insignia Adapter. Then back to HDMI via Retrotink, and if Galactic Pinball plays with almost no lag, then Best Buy sold me on 2 of them.

If one works then the other will too.

They will only let me test in store to see if it meets my needs.

I heard there are $200-300 HDMI "streamer boxes".

1. Can they take 2 inputs and merge them either "half and half" or RGB additive?

2. Can they present the merger with low enough delay to play Virtual Boy Galactic Pinball well?

It's either $80 for 2 HDMI to RCA adapters or $200-300 for an HDMI Editing box.

Now if someone knows of a Dual VGA editing box, let me know.

Also I remember there was a VGA + Composite to Composite converter that is $20 on ebay.
 

AaronD

Active Member
Well. Best Buy will let me try their HDMI to Composite converter (one of them).

I know my Composite Video Combiner is close enough to instant to not effect gameplay, going from Composite to HDMI via Retrotink 2X M Pro.

If one VGA signal converts to HDMI via Amazon Adapter, then Composite via the Insignia Adapter. Then back to HDMI via Retrotink, and if Galactic Pinball plays with almost no lag, then Best Buy sold me on 2 of them.

If one works then the other will too.

They will only let me test in store to see if it meets my needs.
If it's a free test, then go ahead. I'm not holding my breath though.

I heard there are $200-300 HDMI "streamer boxes".

1. Can they take 2 inputs and merge them either "half and half" or RGB additive?

2. Can they present the merger with low enough delay to play Virtual Boy Galactic Pinball well?
They're not designed to do what I think you're trying to do. The same hardware with different programming probably could, but it's not worth the effort to put that function in there. I think the closest they come is "picture-in-picture", like you'd have a fullscreen game with a camera in the corner.

You *might* be able to mess with the analog color signals by breaking off the right pin in the D-sub connector or something like that (red, green, or blue would then go to zero), and then you could leave the T-bar in the middle of a crossfade......

It's either $80 for 2 HDMI to RCA adapters or $200-300 for an HDMI Editing box.
I don't think either is going to work. Not with the options you presented here. Do you know someone that can spec-out and program an FPGA for you?
 
Well, I did find that my Composite Video Editor form Panasonic is quick enough to play Nintendo Pinball through and get the flippers to flip instantly. I directly piped the composite video through, and it was close enough to instant to not effect gameplay.

So I either need to find equivalent equipment that works with VGA inputs and outputs or a psir of really quick VGA to Composite converters.

There is some hope.

One device I have is an Aver MediaEditor. It.has one VGA in, one VGA out, and an Octopus cable that plugs into VGA, and has a pair of 9 pin cables which are a proto-VGA.

Is it as simple as remapping the input from VGA to 9-PIN and then remapping the outpiut from 9-Pin to VGA, or do I need specialized circuits to do that?
A second device, which I won on Ebay was an Analog Systems PLS300. Video Switcher. It has 4 VGA ins, and at least 1 VGA out, and looks like it has editor's buttons on it. Here's hoping it has a "blend/fade" feature, like my Pansonic editor.

Hopefully with either help on my Aver MediaEditor, or hopefully there more expensive Analog Systems PLS300, I can finally play Vrttual Boy and get instant playback.

I heard analog mixing is faster than digital mixing. Is this what I should be looking for?
 

AaronD

Active Member
Is it as simple as remapping the input from VGA to 9-PIN and then remapping the outpiut from 9-Pin to VGA, or do I need specialized circuits to do that?
VGA is 5 signals: Red, Green, Blue, Hsync, Vsync. Some things separate them into 5 BNC's. Projectors and professional switchers, most commonly. The 15-pin Dsub connector has a dedicated ground for each color, and a shared ground for the syncs, for a total of 9 pins for the video signal itself.

The remaining pins are used for two different formats of digital communication to identify the type and capabilities of a display device. Some graphics cards refuse to drive a port that doesn't receive that ID, which caused some problems with early projectors and early computers, and others can be made to blindly throw a signal out there anyway.

I heard analog mixing is faster than digital mixing.
Technically yes......until you need to do something that requires a frame buffer, like synchronizing two inputs that can't be forced into sync themselves. Then you have the exact same problem that a digital one has, with the additional problem of analog storage being generally worse than digital.

Or are you thinking of *hardware* mixing on a dedicated device, vs. *software* mixing on a PC operating system, and not necessarily *analog* vs. *digital*? The FPGA that I mentioned earlier is entirely digital, and entirely hardware, despite that hardware being programmable. The program there is not a list of sequential instructions like it is for a "traditional" computer, but a set of connections between preexisting logic functions. The number of available functions is in the thousands or millions, so you really can do pretty much anything with it, with end-to-end latency measured in nanoseconds if you want......unless the problem itself dictates otherwise.

Back to the sync example, there's never a complete picture on the wire. There's only ever a single pixel, if even that. (blanking intervals...) The sync signals determine where on the screen the presently encoded pixel is supposed to be. To get a complete frame, you have to wait for an entire sync cycle. To get a complete frame of multiple independent sources, you have to wait for two cycles (frames) worst-case. And while you're waiting, you need to store what you've got so far. If what you're doing requires that, then that's unavoidable latency no matter how you do it.

If what you're doing *doesn't* require a complete frame buffer, then you can make it faster. Less latency. But general-purpose tools often use a frame buffer anyway because it's much easier to do that than to switch modes.

A simple converter might be immediate, like VGA to Composite and vice-versa*, or it may only have a horizontal-line buffer instead of a frame buffer just to scale the resolution with, but a general-purpose mixer will probably convert everything to digital internally, use a full frame buffer for every connection regardless of what you're doing with it, and then convert to whatever output formats it has.

Bufferless pure-analog gear will probably have an explicit sync or clock signal that is intended to force all of the sources into sync, and of course everything that it connects to is expected to accept that signal and use it accordingly. There may even be a dedicated device in the rig somewhere, that generates the sync signals and does nothing else, and *everything* takes that as an input. Once you have that though, you can crossfade between live cameras smoothly with zero latency, mess with colors, etc., because there's only a single set of sync signals throughout the entire system, and you just process the colors independently from that. You can't do anything with *adjacent* pixels though; only the *one* that you have in that exact microsecond.

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* Composite might be thought of as "analog compression" in a very loose sense. It has to be "uncompressed" into practically VGA internally before a TV can display it. And the Composite signal was designed originally to be easy for vacuum tube circuits to do that with because that's all there was at the time. No memory or buffer whatsoever, except for the state of each oscillator that swept the one single dot across the screen while its brightness varied. Both sync's are there, for those two local oscillators to lock onto, and the three colors are a clever backwards-compatible addition to the original grayscale, that uses the "dumb average" for brightness and what more-or-less amounts to another radio receiver to recover two difference signals. (color broadcast TV was therefore several layers of radio, not just the one that you tuned to: decoding one gave you access to another, etc.) Overall brightness combined with the two differences, produces red, green, and blue.

The blanking intervals are to provide some space for the sync's to happen while the dot is off-screen (that would be visible too), and for the oscillators to do the return part of their cycles without being seen, to get ready for another visible pass. So if the composite signal did have something in the right part of the blanking interval, it might appear as a diagonal line across the screen as the dot position reset. VGA computer monitors often use the blanking interval to set a reference black level for the next line or the next frame, since nothing is ever equal in analog, and they're trying to produce a good enough picture that that matters.

I think it's fascinating to see the original invention to drive a dirt-cheap tube circuit from a single radio receiver to produce a persistence-of-vision picture, and then its progression to color, and then computers used that same signal, and then the TV's internal color format was brought out to a connector for better quality, and then computers came to drive that format far better than they did originally, with "TV's" that only had that connector and were designed to do justice to that much better signal, and then that format changed to digital in the form of DVI while keeping all of the same concepts, and then DVI became HDMI which added audio and encryption in the new mode but still has a backwards compatible mode so that a DVI to HDMI adapter can be a pin-for-pin wiring job with no electronics. And I've seen DVI ports on graphics cards run in HDMI mode through an adapter, so that yes, you can get audio from a DVI port...because it's running as HDMI.
So......like space rockets being sized for a Roman horse by a linked progression of standards, today's digital video is also related to the original tube TV's.
 

jhanmarcell

New Member
buen día,

tengo un problema similar supongo, tengo el chat en streamelements y carga lo que coloco en twitch, pero al momento de anclarlo al OBS no me aparece visto en el OSB, ya lo coloca como ventana y con la URL pero no se ve

que puede ser??
 

AaronD

Active Member
buen día,

tengo un problema similar supongo, tengo el chat en streamelements y carga lo que coloco en twitch, pero al momento de anclarlo al OBS no me aparece visto en el OSB, ya lo coloca como ventana y con la URL pero no se ve

que puede ser??
Wrong thread?
 
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