59.97 Hz Passthrough mode to Variable framerate monitor

[tripletopper]

How do I tell if a capture card is able to capture the video I put into it as a 59.97 Hz signal so that my capture card can relate to my 'tated monitor playing the Sega Scope, which has variable frame rate, and according to Lenovo my monitor manufacturer can be tuned to 59.97 Hz by the computer.

Also just out of curiosity, is polarization a necessary evil when making low ping TN monitors? Does it have to be polarized that particular way where looking through it through the Sega Scope blacks out the screen but not the real life universe behind it? Can a TN monitor have 90° rotation of polarity and still fundamentally work? I know I could see through the polar filter if I rotate my monitor 90°.

Because if they could do 59.97 Hz, both my capture card and whatever program I send to my rotated monitor, whether it be OBS or another program on the Mac called Console Link, then assuming my capture card is also a 1 millisecond capture card then I should be able to play it through the Mac into the rotated monitor and defeat the Polar shield on it.

 

[AaronD]

How do I tell if a capture card is able to capture the video I put into it as a 59.97 Hz signal so that my capture card can relate to my 'tated monitor playing the Sega Scope, which has variable frame rate, and according to Lenovo my monitor manufacturer can be tuned to 59.97 Hz by the computer.

Try it and see. Easy test. Either it works or it clearly doesn't.

Though if OBS is set to 60fps and your source is 59.97, you'll duplicate a frame every now and then. You might not necessarily see that, because it's only one frame and it doesn't tell you when.

If you really need to know, then I guess you could use one of several free video editors to make a test video - maybe a single number that fills the frame and counts up for every frame, or something like that - run that through the chain and record it, and see if you still have a unique sequential number on every frame.

Also just out of curiosity, is polarization a necessary evil when making low ping TN monitors? Does it have to be polarized that particular way where looking through it through the Sega Scope blacks out the screen but not the real life universe behind it? Can a TN monitor have 90° rotation of polarity and still fundamentally work? I know I could see through the polar filter if I rotate my monitor 90°.

Polarization is required, but a specific direction is not. It might be hard to find one that goes the other way though, just because it's become a manufacturing standard. Arbitrary decision becomes economy of scale.

 

[tripletopper]

1. Can I set OBS to broadcast in 59.97 Hz?

2. I noticed a CRT VGA worked perfectly fine with the Sega Scope. Does a CRT VGA have a 59.97 Hz mode? If not, I got to find out why a VGA CRT works with it but not a rotated TN monitor. The image on the TN monitor I get starts out clear, fades out of stereoscopic focus, and then fades back in until clear, and back and forth.

3. Do they make 1ms Tate Mode adapters?

4. Do they make 3.5 mm TRS connected shutter glasses that are either oppositely polar or "tunable" to either vertical, horizontal, +45 or -45?

 

[AaronD]

1. Can I set OBS to broadcast in 59.97 Hz?

OBS has one setting that affects everything. If it's not in the "Common" list, then you'll have to figure out what fraction it is, because that's how the industry is defined, but the option is there.

2. I noticed a CRT VGA worked perfectly fine with the Sega Scope. Does a CRT VGA have a 59.97 Hz mode? If not, I got to find out why a VGA CRT works with it but not a rotated TN monitor. The image on the TN monitor I get starts out clear, fades out of stereoscopic focus, and then fades back in until clear, and back and forth.

CRT's are (originally at least) pure analog circuitry. *Any* frequency works, as long as it's between the min and max. They don't have their own clocks, but lock to whatever they receive.

That's why 59.97 was even possible in the first place. (actually, it's 59.94, and 29.97 for half that; you might have gotten them mixed up) It was originally 60 because it was (conveniently) locked to the AC power at the studio. So even *that* gear didn't have its own clock, but got it from somewhere else. Once color came along, electronic design had gotten good enough to not need a mechanical clock anymore (at the power generator), and the way that they settled on to send the color information while keeping black-and-white compatibility, required a "color burst" between each frame.

The "color burst" is Just a few cycles of the carrier frequency that was then overlaid on top of the original brightness signal. A local oscillator would sync to that, and then 45 degrees ahead or behind (90 deg between those two) gave two independent color difference signals as "quadrature amplitude modulation" (QAM). So a color TV could use that, and a black and white TV would just be a tiny bit fuzzier, if anyone would even notice.

That "color burst" was needed between every frame because the (cheap) local oscillator would drift and need to re-sync that often. So the interval between frames was extended by that much. Thus, a slightly lower frame rate. Even the original, all-valve, black and white TV's were not synced to their local power, but locked to the signal instead, so even *they* were just fine to run slightly slower.

For actual display, there were (of course!) several methods to end up with a color picture from the black and white + difference signals. But the most obvious and straightforward one is to convert it internally to what is effectively VGA: 2 separate syncs and 3 separate colors. The syncs control the two oscillators that scan a single dot across the screen - one H and one V - and each of the colors controls its own electron gun independently and immediately. All 5 of those things working independently and simultaneously, produces a persistence-of-vision image on the screen.

A CRT that takes VGA (pretty much all of them) can therefore be thought of as a simplified TV, that has each of its internal parts controlled separately and directly by the computer. Nothing more...until they added their own on-screen menus and other smarts.

(and yes, some TV's can be modified to take VGA, by tapping into the internal decoded signal that pretty much already is)

3. Do they make 1ms Tate Mode adapters?

Don't know that. Sorry.

4. Do they make 3.5 mm TRS connected shutter glasses that are either oppositely polar or "tunable" to either vertical, horizontal, +45 or -45?

Don't know that either. But how hard is it to take the glasses apart and rotate them physically?

 

[tripletopper]

OBS has one setting that affects everything. If it's not in the "Common" list, then you'll have to figure out what fraction it is, because that's how the industry is defined, but the option is there.


CRT's are (originally at least) pure analog circuitry. *Any* frequency works, as long as it's between the min and max. They don't have their own clocks, but lock to whatever they receive.

That's why 59.97 was even possible in the first place. (actually, it's 59.94, and 29.97 for half that; you might have gotten them mixed up) It was originally 60 because it was (conveniently) locked to the AC power at the studio. So even *that* gear didn't have its own clock, but got it from somewhere else. Once color came along, electronic design had gotten good enough to not need a mechanical clock anymore (at the power generator), and the way that they settled on to send the color information while keeping black-and-white compatibility, required a "color burst" between each frame.

The "color burst" is Just a few cycles of the carrier frequency that was then overlaid on top of the original brightness signal. A local oscillator would sync to that, and then 45 degrees ahead or behind (90 deg between those two) gave two independent color difference signals as "quadrature amplitude modulation" (QAM). So a color TV could use that, and a black and white TV would just be a tiny bit fuzzier, if anyone would even notice.

That "color burst" was needed between every frame because the (cheap) local oscillator would drift and need to re-sync that often. So the interval between frames was extended by that much. Thus, a slightly lower frame rate. Even the original, all-valve, black and white TV's were not synced to their local power, but locked to the signal instead, so even *they* were just fine to run slightly slower.

For actual display, there were (of course!) several methods to end up with a color picture from the black and white + difference signals. But the most obvious and straightforward one is to convert it internally to what is effectively VGA: 2 separate syncs and 3 separate colors. The syncs control the two oscillators that scan a single dot across the screen - one H and one V - and each of the colors controls its own electron gun independently and immediately. All 5 of those things working independently and simultaneously, produces a persistence-of-vision image on the screen.

A CRT that takes VGA (pretty much all of them) can therefore be thought of as a simplified TV, that has each of its internal parts controlled separately and directly by the computer. Nothing more...until they added their own on-screen menus and other smarts.

(and yes, some TV's can be modified to take VGA, by tapping into the internal decoded signal that pretty much already is)


Don't know that. Sorry.


Don't know that either. But how hard is it to take the glasses apart and rotate them physically?

About question number four about how hard is it to make an oppositely reversed Sega Scope glasses?

What I noticed about the Sega Scope glasses is that the outer shell has a constant polarized view that filters out modern TVs. But the reason why the Sega Scope works it has a second polar layer that's variable that flashes on and off based on whether or not there's electric presence or absence on the channel signal.

You know what I'm going to go for the simplest route possible. I already know my SegaScope glasses work with the CRT TV. I already have a second Twitch studio setup for the CRT specifically for light gun games. Now it has a second purpose of housing Sega Scope games as well.

Don't try to chase the unicorn of a modern TV that plays Sega Scope games and light gun games from the original consoles. Appreciate the unicorn I already got, which is a CRT setup and enough equipment to accurately capture the 3D Sega Scope in 3d

Let someone with more smarts than me in certain areas take the credit for getting a modern TN monitor to work with SegaScope.

I've shown that a CRT VGA works for Sega Scope. Unfortunately I don't know if my plastic furniture could hold a computer CRT VGA screen without it collapsing. Then there's the trouble of rerouting the video output.

 

[AaronD]

What I noticed about the Sega Scope glasses is that the outer shell has a constant polarized view that filters out modern TVs. But the reason why the Sega Scope works it has a second polar layer that's variable that flashes on and off based on whether or not there's electric presence or absence on the channel signal.

Yes.

Most modern TV's are LCD (liquid crystal display - TN is one type of that), which has a polarizing film on each side of the display element itself. Those two polarizers are perpendicular to each other, so that no light can pass normally. (or very little - some leaks through anyway by other means, which is why the contrast can't be perfect) And then the display element itself (the actual "crystal" part) twists the polarization of light that passes through it so that it *can* go through the second polarizer...or leaves it untwisted so that it can't. Thus, the light that leaves an LCD is always polarized according to the second film, with varying intensity.

The Sega Scope is probably another LCD that works exactly the same way. Put the two devices next to each other, and if the middle two polarizers don't line up, then the assembly doesn't work. The reason it works for CRT's is because their phosphors create unpolarized light directly, with no need to polarize it.

...light gun games from the original consoles...

*Those* worked by knowing the exact timing of the video signal, and thus where the single bright dot was on the CRT screen at any given time. CRT "touch" screens with a stylus worked the same way. Focus the device on a small part of the screen, and when it sees a flash, the exact time of that flash compared to the video signal, indicates where it is on the screen.

LCD's are bright all the time. No flashes for that sort of device to pick up on.

Some stuff simply requires the original tech to work, as a direct function of *how* that original tech does what it does. If someone were really determined and skilled, (s)he could make an emulator, but it'd take a fair amount of design work and construction effort, in addition to intimate knowledge of how the stuff worked originally.

 

[tripletopper]

Yes I know that, but it's nice to hear someone else explain it. Thank you.

Supposedly Amazon offers TRS 3.5 mm glasses with adjustable polarities. If I can rotate both the inner and outer layer 90 degrees, it should work. Unfortunately, they're $100 a piece, and I need 2 pairs to film through one and see through the other.

Is it worth paying $50 a month for 4 months and putting off an attempt to make a low ping 3d monitor come into existence for a month longer to get SegaScope working on a modern TN monitor? Or is that a spit in the face of the CRT TV studio downstairs?

I'm thinking lowering ping on Sonic Generations is more important than adding a second place to play Sega Scope. Just go with the HD Fury in March.

 

[tripletopper]

Okay I did some updates and found out that the 3D is tuning in and out like it gradually goes in and out of focus.

And I also found a way to replicate the 59.9 Hz when going from a retro tink straight to a variable rate monitor.

Just go full screen and make the screen carrying the footage be Have a full output of the game then your variable rate monitor will kick in.

I notice there's a setting that can't seem to be changed. The valid FPS range. I'm trying to type in variable numbers like 59.9 to 60.0 But the only setting available 60.0002 I spoke the minimum and the maximum in the rational frames per second value. That does not look adjustable You cannot set any two numbers to be the two variables that the numbers could be between in the range.

If I knew how to adjust that number to maybe somewhere between 59.93 and 59.94 that would work well.

59.94 is 59 and 28/30 I could set the rational number to be 3598 numerator and 60 denominator.

 

[tripletopper]

I noticed that the background shifts slowly from out of focus to in focus then back out of focus then suddenly does a very abrupt change. I think at that point it's confusing left eye and right eye. And then going through another cycle it goes back to normal I think. I'm going to try to time how long between the abrupt changes and see if there's a regular pattern. Currently I'm set at 3598 as the num raider and 60 is the denominator

I noticed the frame rate says 59.9667

Sounds like I'm too fast by 2 frames every 60 seconds. I'm going to dial the numerator back to and see what happens.

 

[AaronD]

...num raider...

Speech recognition needs more proofreading? Or autoco-wreck? :-)

Anyway, try 30000/1001, or 60000/1001. My favorite good free video editor spells it out like that in its plain-text project file.

Shotcut - Home

Shotcut is a free, open source, cross-platform video editor for Windows, Mac and Linux

shotcut.org

 

[tripletopper]

Speech recognition needs more proofreading? Or autoco-wreck? :-)

Anyway, try 30000/1001, or 60000/1001. My favorite good free video editor spells it out like that in its plain-text project file.

Shotcut - Home

Shotcut is a free, open source, cross-platform video editor for Windows, Mac and Linux

shotcut.org

Unfortunately I'm using it on Android. The one system it's not on is not a system that has it. BTW thanks